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re: Hill incident videotaped?
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:16 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:16 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i knew girls blowing guys when i was in 7th grade, and i knew of at least a handful fricking in 8th grade
You were just their friend though, right?
0
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
every person is different
people are at different levels at different ages
I think you have to have something on paper and defined or else it'll become "well whats the difference between 10 years old and 17".
If he didn't force her I wouldn't say he's morally wrong however.. but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
this is completely relative
i had a better understanding of my actions at 14 than most adults i know today
I understand the subjectivity. How can you write that into a law though? Its ridiculous. When humans enforce the laws is when this should be taken into account.
quote:
it's not real rape, and LA laws call it carnal knowledge anyway
As do all the states. While you may have been a 25 year old walking in a 14 year old body, that is not the case for 95% of 14 year olds. It is a moral and legal wrong.
quote:
my point is you can't bring morality into this b/c that is a very, very recent moral development
Every friking thing we do in this country is relatively recent. All laws are fundamentally based on morality. Should we get rid of all laws then?
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:20 pm to Elleshoe
quote:
but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
certainly there is a difference in pre and post puberty
i'm not saying that has to be the "line," but that certainly IS a line that shouldn't be crossed
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
I am more inline with what you are saying SFP
I have a daughter and she is 7 yo. I will fight tooth and naiol to prevent this from happening but if it does I will hold myself and the boy accountable he does know better. And He should be punished.
I think that jail is a bit too harsh.
These kids share classes and events togtehrs. They are part of a social system and situation. Why put 14 with the older kids if its too different menatlities.
So its okay for a 14 year old girl to do whatever she wants with a 14/15/16 year olf boy but if she does thsi with a 18 year old she was to naive to know and he should be punished.
He did know right from wrong and he knew that it was a bad idea. He should be punished if true but i think Jail adn the sex offender charge is way extreme.
I have a daughter and she is 7 yo. I will fight tooth and naiol to prevent this from happening but if it does I will hold myself and the boy accountable he does know better. And He should be punished.
I think that jail is a bit too harsh.
These kids share classes and events togtehrs. They are part of a social system and situation. Why put 14 with the older kids if its too different menatlities.
So its okay for a 14 year old girl to do whatever she wants with a 14/15/16 year olf boy but if she does thsi with a 18 year old she was to naive to know and he should be punished.
He did know right from wrong and he knew that it was a bad idea. He should be punished if true but i think Jail adn the sex offender charge is way extreme.
This post was edited on 1/13/11 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:21 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
honestly, if my 14-year old daughter consented to blow 2 guys in a locker room, i'd feel that i failed as a parent
THIS!
And I've got a 13 year old at home.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:22 pm to Cussian
quote:
It is a moral and legal wrong.
why is it morally wrong?
70-80 years ago (which is less thank a blink in human existence), it was quite normal
hell, 50-60 years ago the acts were normal
quote:
Every friking thing we do in this country is relatively recent.
America has been around almost 250 years. even in that context, it's a new moral revelation
quote:
All laws are fundamentally based on morality.
no. they're based on disruption in society
quote:
Should we get rid of all laws then?
laws are, and always have been, legislating disruptions in society
This post was edited on 1/13/11 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
certainly there is a difference in pre and post puberty
what if it was a 14 year old and a college senior?
I think what we're both heading towards is that the law might be ok but it needs to be heard on a case by case basis and the circumstances really considered instead of just strictly following the statute.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i knew of at least a handful fricking
I had one tell me she wanted to frick me in 8th grade English class one day.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:23 pm to Tiger Phanatick
quote:
So its okay for a 14 year old girl to do whatever she wants with a 14/15/16 year olf boy but if she does thsi with a 18 year old she was to naive to know and he should be punished.
exactly
what lines should be drawn the other direction?
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:24 pm to OldManRiver
where can i download it?
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:25 pm to SlowFlowPro
that's a great point Phanatic.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:25 pm to Tiger Phanatick
quote:
These kids share classes and events togtehrs. They are part of a social system and situation. Why put 14 with the older kids if its too different menatlities.
This is exactly right on. The main reason in having the different tiers of education (elementary, middle, high) is mostly because of the kids' cognitive abilities. If the cognitive abilities of a 9th grader are more closely resembling the 8th grade as opposed to the 10th grade than the 9th grade needs to be moved to the middle school level where the cognitive abilities are more in line with each other. There needs to be a better way of going about prosecuting these things.
Everyone is also failing to point out that the frontal lobe of 18 yo brain isnt fully developed at this point either which is why JH's decision making was poor in the instance.
This post was edited on 1/13/11 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:26 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
a 14 year old knows what he/she is doing
Then shouldn't we be trying 14 year olds as adults when they commit crimes? We can do away with the juvenile justice system and simply put them in prisons with adults.
quote:
having sex with 14 year old girls isn't wrong everywhere, and is a moral concept developed in the past 50-60 years or so
The same could be said for segregation, and its being made illegal.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:29 pm to Elleshoe
quote:
the law might be ok but it needs to be heard on a case by case basis and the circumstances really considered instead of just strictly following the statute.
i think the statute itself needs to remove age of the victim, add in puberty as the line, and require an examintion of certain things like:
1. persuasion, if any
2. coercion, if any
3. her history, if any
4. her history with this guy, if any
5. any history of molestation
hell, keep the guy's age in as the first qualifier, and then require an examination into things like this
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
why is it morally wrong?
Basically because our society says so, but realistically because the vast majority of 14 year olds don't have the ability to make those kind of decisions for themselves. Opposed to an older person who has the ability to reason, AND knows what he is doing has major consequences, but uses his age and status to pressure her anyway.
quote:
hell, 50-60 years ago the acts were normal
No it wasn't. At least not in the US. In some rural, uneducated pockets (like hillbillys) it may have been acceptable, but not "normal". You have a misguided sense of history.
quote:
they're based on disruption in society
whatever, laws are made to protect people from harming themselves and others, which is based on morality
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:31 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:
Then shouldn't we be trying 14 year olds as adults when they commit crimes?
i've seen it at 16 and threats with 15 year olds
quote:
The same could be said for segregation, and its being made illegal.
that would have worked its way out eventually as well
society progresses, as long as it is allowed to progress
law maintains social order by punishing social disruption
i fail to see the disruption in a 14 year old consensually and without coercion blowing an 18 year old
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:33 pm to Elleshoe
quote:
what if it was a 14 year old and a college senior?
quote:
These kids share classes and events togtehrs. They are part of a social system and situation. Why put 14 with the older kids if its too different menatlities.
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:33 pm to LSUthrilla
quote:
If the cognitive abilities of a 9th grader are more closely resembling the 8th grade as opposed to the 10th grade than the 9th grade needs to be moved to the middle school level where the cognitive abilities are more in line with each other.
You might as well build a separate school for every grade level then. You gonna pay for this?
Posted on 1/13/11 at 12:34 pm to Cussian
quote:
Opposed to an older person who has the ability to reason
there's not a lot of difference in a 14 year old and 18 year old, if you're going this route
again, why 18?
at what point is a boy removed enough from the 14 year old for it to be a crime?
quote:
No it wasn't. At least not in the US. In some rural, uneducated pockets (like hillbillys) it may have been acceptable, but not "normal".
if it wasn't happening then, why was the birth rate for teens higher then?
hell if you remove illegal and 1st generation immigrants, our birth rate is DECIDEDLY lower than in the past
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