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Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:08 am to ctiger69
quote:
This is one of the great frauds in sports history. Ozzie is THE shining example of how an average player gets glorified by the media because of likeability. Ozzie Smith, without the flips and the great smile, is Craig Counsel. His career offensive numbers are absolutely laughable. In 19 years, he has 2,400 hits (less than one per game), a .262 batting average and a whopping 2 HR and 50 RBI average per year.
“But he’s a 15 time All Star” you shout! That supports the joke that is All-Star voting. Let’s look at his “All-Star” performances: .222, .248, .243, .254, .257. The guy hit .300 ONCE in his career, and barely! “But,” you protest, “Ozzie was a wizard in the field! He had 13 Gold Gloves!” So you are basing your other strong argument for Ozzie’s greatness on the second-most ridiculous “award” in sports—the popularity contest that is the Golden Glove. Again, let’s take a look. Only twice in 19 seasons did Ozzie field over .985, and he had over 20 errors in a season five times, or about 30% of his career.
Let’s compare Ozzie to a couple of his peers: Derek Jeter: Let’s not insult Derek like this. This is not even close in any category you pick, statistical, leadership, world titles, playoff wins, etc.
This makes it PAINFULLY obvious the guy knows nothing about baseball. Errors and fielding percentage? LOL
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:15 am to ctiger69
Ozzie Smith is not in the Hall of Fame for his bat. He wasn't a terrible hitter, particularly for the standards of the time which have gotten skewed in the Great Offense era. Shortstops, until Cal Ripken, weren't expected to hit. Cal revolutionized the position, but prior to him, shortstops were evaluated on their defense.
So let's look at the numbers. Total Zone Runs tracks the number of runs a defensive players is worth above average. It's not perfect, but it's a good rough tool for career defensive value. Ozzie ranks 1st all-time among shortstops. What's even more important is the margin. Here's the all-time top 5:
Ozzie 239
Belanger 238
Ripken 176
Aparacio 149
Vizquel 134
Ozzie was worth over 100 runs more than Omar Vizquel, who is the best defensive shortstop some of you can remember. Only 7 players in history have 100 Zone Runs as a shortstop, and that's the GAP between Ozzie and #5 on the list. He lapped the field.
Don't like advanced metrics? Fine, let's look at traditional ones (all are shortstops only). He ranks 1st all-time in assists and 8th in putouts. He ranks 2nd in double plays turned and despite all of those outs, he only ranks 80th all time in total errors.
Oh, but that's just because he played forever? Nope. He was 1st in putouts 2x, and top 3 11x. Assists? 1st EIGHT times, and top 3 13x. He had the top Range Factor 7 times and was top 3 13 times.
Oh, and he has 2,460 hits (109th all-time) and 580 stolen bases (22nd). If defense has any value at all, Ozzie Smith is a Hall of Famer. He is the greatest defensive player at the most important defensive position in the game's history, and he could hit a little bit (unlike his closest comp, Belnager, who truly was hopeless at the plate).
And I don't even like the Cardinals.
So let's look at the numbers. Total Zone Runs tracks the number of runs a defensive players is worth above average. It's not perfect, but it's a good rough tool for career defensive value. Ozzie ranks 1st all-time among shortstops. What's even more important is the margin. Here's the all-time top 5:
Ozzie 239
Belanger 238
Ripken 176
Aparacio 149
Vizquel 134
Ozzie was worth over 100 runs more than Omar Vizquel, who is the best defensive shortstop some of you can remember. Only 7 players in history have 100 Zone Runs as a shortstop, and that's the GAP between Ozzie and #5 on the list. He lapped the field.
Don't like advanced metrics? Fine, let's look at traditional ones (all are shortstops only). He ranks 1st all-time in assists and 8th in putouts. He ranks 2nd in double plays turned and despite all of those outs, he only ranks 80th all time in total errors.
Oh, but that's just because he played forever? Nope. He was 1st in putouts 2x, and top 3 11x. Assists? 1st EIGHT times, and top 3 13x. He had the top Range Factor 7 times and was top 3 13 times.
Oh, and he has 2,460 hits (109th all-time) and 580 stolen bases (22nd). If defense has any value at all, Ozzie Smith is a Hall of Famer. He is the greatest defensive player at the most important defensive position in the game's history, and he could hit a little bit (unlike his closest comp, Belnager, who truly was hopeless at the plate).
And I don't even like the Cardinals.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:17 am to ctiger69
quote:
We were always told this but his fielding was just average.
Ozzie is maybe the best defensive player in the history of baseball.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:18 am to Baloo
quote:
Baloo
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:19 am to BayouBengals03
quote:
Ozzie is maybe the best defensive player in the history of baseball.
I tried to tell him. All he cares about is errors and fielding percentage though
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:20 am to Baloo
What was it like having Belanger and Ripken back-to-back at shortstop? Must have been awesome.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:20 am to BayouBengals03
I hate WAR with a fiery passion, so I'd be a hypocrite if I used it, but his dWAR is off the charts great. But I also think dWAR is a poorly conceived metric. But, if you do value it, Ozzie crushes that one too. Nearly every metric shows Ozzie to be a historically great defensive shortstop.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:23 am to BayouBengals03
quote:
What was it like having Belanger and Ripken back-to-back at shortstop? Must have been awesome.
I'm a bit too young for Belanger, but I knew of him as a kid. Cal was a Belanger who could hit. 30 years of excellence at short spoiled O's fans and kinda ruined our expectations. I mean, JJ Hardy is a perfectly decent shortstop, but... you know.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:33 am to Baloo
The guy that comes to mind right away is Stephon Marbury. He had the talent but just never lived up to the hype they gave him coming out of Tech. Actually Kenny Anderson could be the answer also.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:33 am to ctiger69
quote:
And Vizquel has played in close to 200 more games!
And in those 200 more games, Vizquel had 1000 FEWER chances.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:36 am to DelU249
quote:
Namath isn't overrated because of the era he played in. in fact, it shows how great he was
Namath threw more interceptions than touchdowns, barely completed half his passes, and had a losing record as a starting quarterback. He's in the hall of fame because the guarantee and the fact that he played in New York.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:37 am to ohiovol
Namath is in the HOF because the offense they ran was light years ahead of most anyone else's in the NFL (except Van Brocklin's). The AFL was more progressive. He also was the face of entire league. He deserves to be in Canton.
This post was edited on 11/11/15 at 11:38 am
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:38 am to etm512
quote:
On the Elway thing you have to compare him to QBs of that day and age.
Ok
Marino
Montana
Moon
Young
Favre
Aikman
Rich Gannon
Jim Kelly
Jeff George
I could go on and on - 83 quarterbacks are above him in career passer rating with many being before or during his time.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:38 am to FootballNostradamus
Who are you talking about? Cal? He led the league in WAR three times. frick no, he's not overrated.
This post was edited on 11/11/15 at 11:42 am
Posted on 11/11/15 at 11:48 am to ctiger69
This post was edited on 11/11/15 at 11:49 am
Posted on 11/11/15 at 12:20 pm to ohiovol
Namath threw 500 passes one year without taking even 10 sacks
He had a lightning quick release and the farther you throw it, the lower your completion percentage is and the more likely you are to throw an INT. Look at his YPA, he's the first QB to throw for 4,000 yards
Turnovers didn't have the same high correlation to winning as they do today because offense, particularly when we got to the 70s, wasn't as effective or efficient as today
He also played his entire career injured like no other
He was incredibly valuable to his team. He was the best quarterback in the league before the merger
He would light up this bullshite 2015 NFL with such ease and without the injuries. Anyone who says Joe Namath is overrated or worse, not a HOF player,
Doesn't know what the frick they're talking about
Not that any of this is important
He had a lightning quick release and the farther you throw it, the lower your completion percentage is and the more likely you are to throw an INT. Look at his YPA, he's the first QB to throw for 4,000 yards
Turnovers didn't have the same high correlation to winning as they do today because offense, particularly when we got to the 70s, wasn't as effective or efficient as today
He also played his entire career injured like no other
He was incredibly valuable to his team. He was the best quarterback in the league before the merger
He would light up this bullshite 2015 NFL with such ease and without the injuries. Anyone who says Joe Namath is overrated or worse, not a HOF player,
Doesn't know what the frick they're talking about
Not that any of this is important
Posted on 11/11/15 at 12:24 pm to sms151t
Van Brocklin played in a different era
I mean the afl had offense but the 50s NFL was very kind to offense, a decline in the 60s, and dead ball defense in the 70s
I mean the afl had offense but the 50s NFL was very kind to offense, a decline in the 60s, and dead ball defense in the 70s
This post was edited on 11/11/15 at 12:27 pm
Posted on 11/11/15 at 12:25 pm to DelU249
I was talking about when he was coaching the Vikings and the Falcons not when played.
Posted on 11/11/15 at 12:26 pm to sms151t
my bad His highlights are awesome. Same for Johnny u
Football changes, not the players.
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