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Message
re: The Watchmen Sucked
Posted on 3/9/09 at 12:56 pm to Baloo
Posted on 3/9/09 at 12:56 pm to Baloo
quote:
The previews were a bait and switch as this is not an action movie.
i thought it had more action than i expected
the previews and buildup made this out to be a thought-provoking analysis of what it is to be a hero. a character-driven story-study of people who rose up to be heroes without having superpowers (other than dr manhattan)
that was the true bait and switch
1
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the previews and buildup made this out to be a thought-provoking analysis of what it is to be a hero. a character-driven story-study of people who rose up to be heroes without having superpowers (other than dr manhattan)
That's what it is...whether you agree with how successful it was or not.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:06 pm to DanglingFury
quote:
That's what it is.
and it failed at it so bad all that was left was a standard superhero action movie, WITH the standard danger of the end. the bad guys win, kinda. that's about the only difference than your average hero movie
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:12 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
and it failed at it so bad all that was left was a standard superhero action movie
So, you're admitting that it was a
quote:though in your eyes, a non-successful one.
analysis of what it is to be a hero. a character-driven story-study of people who rose up to be heroes without having superpowers
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:24 pm to DanglingFury
i mean in a way. they hinted at it and in some ways attempted it
but saying rorsharch is crazy b/c he's crazy really isn't an analysis, you know? same shite with dr manhattan and the comedian. hell there wasn't even an analysis of the night owl really.
since there was no real characterization or detailed backstories, it's hard to analyze anything really
but saying rorsharch is crazy b/c he's crazy really isn't an analysis, you know? same shite with dr manhattan and the comedian. hell there wasn't even an analysis of the night owl really.
since there was no real characterization or detailed backstories, it's hard to analyze anything really
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but saying rorsharch is crazy b/c he's crazy really isn't an analysis, you know?
But that's not what the movie said. Or what I have argued. The movie gives a literal reason and the interpretive reason is that maintaining an absolutist moral code will drive you insane, and in fact he deals with it by creating another personality.
You are criticizing a movie in your mind that doesn't exist. You so want to be the guy rallying behind the truth that you are departing from the movie itslef.
There was no backstory for Rorsharch and Dr. Manhattan? Were you in the bathroom for 30 minutes?
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:38 pm to Baloo
quote:
The movie gives a literal reason and the interpretive reason is that maintaining an absolutist moral code will drive you insane, and in fact he deals with it by creating another personality.
according to him, this isn't what made him develop that other personality
it doesn't take an absolutist moral code to be so utterly disgusted with mankind due to a horrible experience with it
quote:
You so want to be the guy rallying behind the truth that you are departing from the movie itslef.
you just invented a backstory for rorsharch that doesn't exist in the movie
quote:
There was no backstory for Rorsharch and Dr. Manhattan?
whoa rorsharch had a whore mom and was beat up by bullies. great
and dr manhatten (at his development during th emovie) was so far removed from his human form that the backstory was essentially of another character, and even then all we find out was that he had a girlfriend who he cheated on.
all that happens to his character during the movie was he goes from emotionless to believing in man (in a way that doesn't make sense, since he knows the past and future of all those involved in the change of heart). he's the game guy at the start and teh finish, and the backstory was essentially of another person
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:39 pm to Baloo
The problem that I have is that while I did like the movie, I think that some of the things that they left out from the book would have been very helpful in explaining his backstory. More of the scenes with Rorshach and the psychiatrist, explaining where his mask came from, why he got into crimefighting, etc.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:45 pm to borrelia
quote:
explaining where his mask came from, why he got into crimefighting, etc.
if this were in the movie, it would have meant 100 times more than knowing his mom was a whore
he could have said, "my mother was a whore" and that would have been that.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 1:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
Exactly. The thing that frustrated me was that I knew those things, so most of the movie made sense to me, but the people I was with who had not read the book didn't really get it. I realize that some cuts had to be made, but I think they could have been done in a different way to keep it <3 hours and still make sense.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:08 pm to borrelia
basically what i'm getting from those who love the graphic novels is this:
the graphic novel has a lot of things that do go into much more depth, but snyder left them out and chose different, lesser scenes to replace them with. i don't think this really weakens my argument much
i still don't think the story was anything special, it just seems that some possible positive details were left out that would have made it overall better
the graphic novel has a lot of things that do go into much more depth, but snyder left them out and chose different, lesser scenes to replace them with. i don't think this really weakens my argument much
i still don't think the story was anything special, it just seems that some possible positive details were left out that would have made it overall better
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:11 pm to SlowFlowPro
I didn't invent the backstory. It is explained in the shrink scene. He expalins why he became Rorsharch to the shrink and tells the story of the little girl. Yes, I added the line because it kaes it clear, but there's a reason he tells the story of the girl and yells about his face. That is his origin story. You don't like it, but fine. But it was in there.
And it is about the different moral codes. Contrast the characters.
And it is about the different moral codes. Contrast the characters.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:14 pm to Baloo
quote:
I didn't invent the backstory. It is explained in the shrink scene. He expalins why he became Rorsharch to the shrink and tells the story of the little girl. Yes, I added the line because it kaes it clear, but there's a reason he tells the story of the girl and yells about his face. That is his origin story. You don't like it, but fine. But it was in there.
but he didn't create his alter ego because of his absolutist view of humanity
quote:
And it is about the different moral codes. Contrast the characters.
oh i know that, but there is way too much run-on, especially between comedian and rorsharch...well and dr manhattan. they all base their codes in their views that man = worthless/bad...and oxymandies or whatever his name is feels similarly
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
Yes, he did. Hence the line about his formerly being too soft on criminals because he let them live. The movie does make his dual personality clear, they have him explain his origin to the shrink with the little girl, he yells about his face, and he does have the absolutist moral code. What more do you want? The director to stop the movie and personally explain you to the themes? Sorry it didn't lay everything out for you, you actually had to think a little bit.
And I disagree that they all see man as bad. Dr. Manhattan is amoral, he sees them as neither. Ozymandias doesn't see man as bad, but he just views it as anabstratc, saving 10 is worth killing 1. Silk Specter II and Nite Owl II both view man as basically good.
And I disagree that they all see man as bad. Dr. Manhattan is amoral, he sees them as neither. Ozymandias doesn't see man as bad, but he just views it as anabstratc, saving 10 is worth killing 1. Silk Specter II and Nite Owl II both view man as basically good.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
NOTE: this is all from the context of having read the book but having not seen the movie yet.
Rorshach's story isn't just that his mother was a whore or that he had a tough life, that's just part of it.
Rorshach's youth is why he became such a good fighter, but even though his life was shite he used that as impetus to drive him into making the world a better place (by donning the mask and fighting crime). The straw that broke the camel's back though was finding the dead girl's remains. Somewhere inside him something turned off (or on, depending on your view). Think of him as a Batman that suddenly has no qualms about killing.
Rorshach's story isn't just that his mother was a whore or that he had a tough life, that's just part of it.
Rorshach's youth is why he became such a good fighter, but even though his life was shite he used that as impetus to drive him into making the world a better place (by donning the mask and fighting crime). The straw that broke the camel's back though was finding the dead girl's remains. Somewhere inside him something turned off (or on, depending on your view). Think of him as a Batman that suddenly has no qualms about killing.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:25 pm to Baloo
quote:
What more do you want?
apparently what the graphic novel contains but what snyder chose to leave out
quote:
Sorry it didn't lay everything out for you, you actually had to think a little bit.
jumping to conclusions (when you have the dots lined up already) isn't getting into a hardcore analysis
quote:
And I disagree that they all see man as bad.
it's not really bad as much as how they see/value humanity and humanity's values. it's pretty much the same
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:27 pm to Bard
quote:
Rorshach's youth is why he became such a good fighter, but even though his life was shite he used that as impetus to drive him into making the world a better place (by donning the mask and fighting crime). The straw that broke the camel's back though was finding the dead girl's remains. Somewhere inside him something turned off (or on, depending on your view). Think of him as a Batman that suddenly has no qualms about killing.
see half of this was in it (dead girl) and half of it wasn't (the actual backstory)
the movie presents it as he's a crime fighter (no explanation of why/how) who stops believing in humanity once he encounters the killer of that girl. it goes from whore mother to bully fighting him to him going after the girl. nothing inbetween
and what's inbetween is the meat and potatoes
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:39 pm to SlowFlowPro
A good writer and/or director can work it so that everything that needs to be fleshed out is. when adapting a from a novel though, if you put it into movie form the movie will be 3+ hours and you'll still miss stuff eventually unless you break it up into multiple movies.
Normally I like to see the movie first (like Harry Potter), then read the book so I can see the fleshing out. This time though, I'm glad it will be the other way around.
Normally I like to see the movie first (like Harry Potter), then read the book so I can see the fleshing out. This time though, I'm glad it will be the other way around.
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:42 pm to Bard
quote:
A good writer and/or director
i don't know who wrote this, but snyder is a pretty mediocre/bad director
quote:
so that everything that needs to be fleshed out is.
this is, apparently, the problem
he chose the wrong things to highlight and failed to flesh out a lot
Posted on 3/9/09 at 2:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
Damn, you are really passionate about your hate for this movie. 
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