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Posted on 9/3/20 at 11:57 am to lsut2005
quote:
There is ZERO... absolutely none.. no proof that the brain produces consciousness
We know there is consciousness
We know the brain is the center of neural activity
There is no evidence of a soul or any forces beyond the material world
Therefore, we can assume that consciousness is contained within the brain. This is not a definitive statement, but based on the evidence available to us, it's the best explanation.
quote:
On the other hand, there is a mountain of evidence suggesting correlation is not causation (anomalies, direct experiences, physics, philosophy).
There is a difference between mistaking correlation and causation with say, ice cream sales and temperature, two readily apparent variables, and saying that because we don't fully understand consciousness means that it's equally, or more likely, that there is some non-materialist answer to it.
Every body function is managed by the brain/nervous system. You only take issue with the natural extension that this applies to consciousness because consciousness is a difficult problem that we have yet to solve. That does not mean the answer is to look to ridiculous claims like souls.
btw, that link you gave me is not a citation to any type of study or evidence, but more or less baseless conjecture. Him being a doctor doesn't make what he said not conjecture.
This post was edited on 9/3/20 at 11:59 am
Posted on 9/3/20 at 11:59 am to lsut2005
quote:
And you know this... how?
IMO I think the soul/consciousness/whatever you want to call it, is filtered by the brain. We EVOLVED to receive consciousness. Maybe animals are conscious, but on a different level? Who knows... it's all a guess for no, but science is currently pointing more and more to consciousness being a separate from the brain.
It seems like you were agreeing with me since you said also said we evolved to receive consciousness.
But biologic processes such as communication, using tools, empathy all seem to give rise to the soul. And thinking about it from an evolutionary perspective, the propensity for these types of systems would give a human a big advantage compared with those who aren't when looking at large groups of people (someone who lacks all empathy may have a local advantage against someone who has it, but since that person can't really form a group to compete in the same way that all people who have empathy can, they are at a disadvantage in the long run if you think of it in an evolutionary manner).
So to me, it seems that all the little quirks that make up a "soul" also would give large groups a competitive advantage over those that don't. This leads me to the conclusion that the presence of a souls is just a result of the way we evolved.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:00 pm to Porcine Human
I mean here’s a link to his study...
Aware study
Great book on the subject too
Book
Aware study
Great book on the subject too
Book
This post was edited on 9/3/20 at 12:03 pm
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:04 pm to lsut2005
quote:
The results revealed that 40% of those who survived a cardiac arrest were aware during the time that they were clinically dead and before their hearts were restarted. Dr. Parnia, in the interview stated: “The evidence thus far suggests that in the first few minutes after death, consciousness is not annihilated.
I think that really just seems to indicate that we don't understand how the brain functions fully (which is a generally accepted fact) and that it can function for a period after clinical death.
I mean it could be that we all have consciousness which floats around or whatever after our bodies die - but I don't see that research as being incredibly strong evidence to say that is the most likely scenario.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:05 pm to lsut2005
quote:
I mean here’s a link to his study...
"The results revealed that 40% of those who survived a cardiac arrest were aware during the time that they were clinically dead and before their hearts were restarted"
I've seen this as a medic. Had a guy in V-fib and dropped something pulling him out of the ambulance. Once they got him back in the ER, a day later he recounted everything we were doing and one of us dropping something while pulling him out. I no longer remember what it was we dropped. He watched us put his watch in between his legs that had come off. Went into very specific details, the whole time we had been doing chest compressions and shocking him, he was absolutely not awake. But he could tell us other random small details outside of the obvious, was pretty neat.
My dad went into cardiac arrest years ago and was shocked back in the ER. He gives pretty cool testimony about being visited by angels. Basically they looked like warriors, not pretty little nice angels like what we think of.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:08 pm to windshieldman
quote:
"The results revealed that 40% of those who survived a cardiac arrest were aware during the time that they were clinically dead and before their hearts were restarted"
I've seen this as a medic. Had a guy in V-fib and dropped something pulling him out of the ambulance. Once they got him back in the ER, a day later he recounted everything we were doing and one of us dropping something while pulling him out. I no longer remember what it was we dropped. He watched us put his watch in between his legs that had come off. Went into very specific details, the whole time we had been doing chest compressions and shocking him, he was absolutely not awake. But he could tell us other random small details outside of the obvious, was pretty neat.
My dad went into cardiac arrest years ago and was shocked back in the ER. He gives pretty cool testimony about being visited by angels. Basically they looked like warriors, not pretty little nice angels like what we think of.
And there are arguments for the evolutionary advantage of dreams, of some of the psychedelic reactions which give people a since of religion / heaven. It really becomes a sort of chicken or the egg discussion at that point.
But bringing it back to the topic of this discussion - animals which have some of those latent processes in their evolution will display some more human characteristics and seem to also have a "soul" as humans do.
Personally i don't know what I think will happen after death, if my soul will live on or not. My gut tells me no, but I guess I'll just have to wait and find out.
This post was edited on 9/3/20 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:10 pm to Porcine Human
quote:
This is not a definitive statement, but based on the evidence available to us, it's the best explanation
Very subjective.. we can go round and round on this subject matter.. when it comes to consciousness, we’re literally like Neanderthals trying to understand astronomy.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:11 pm to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
nd there are arguments for the evolutionary advantage of dreams, of some of the psychedelic reactions which give people a since of religion / heaven. It really becomes a sort of chicken or the egg discussion at that poin
YOu may be thinking of DMT. Some readings I read years ago suggest there isn't enough released at death to cause any of that. Epinephrine shouldn't cause any of that either which is what's given in cardiac arrest
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:11 pm to Geekboy
Of course they have souls. They aren’t redheads
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:12 pm to Geekboy
Some animals may have souls but cats definitely aren't one of those animals.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:12 pm to lsut2005
All I'm going to say is that I've done a lot of layman's research into consciousness for fun, listening to podcasts with neuroscientists and reading abstracts mostly, and I've yet to come across any mention of this . So color me skeptical, especially considering that his "evidence" comes from near/"after" death experiences.
From the abstract of that study:
I assume they address this methodology more in depth in the full study, but on the surface this is extremely suspect.
From the abstract of that study:
quote:
The study director continued, saying that, “A total of 2060 cardiac arrest patients were studied. Of that number, 330 survived and 140 said that they had been partly aware at the time of resuscitating”.
I assume they address this methodology more in depth in the full study, but on the surface this is extremely suspect.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:15 pm to lsut2005
quote:
Very subjective.. we can go round and round on this subject matter
But it's not subjective at all
It's really the only conclusion you can make based on the above statements.
quote:
when it comes to consciousness, we’re literally like Neanderthals trying to understand astronomy.
Not sure I would go that far, but yes it's a difficult problem
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:15 pm to Ross
quote:I'd just as soon go wherever dogs go.
If heaven exists and I can’t see my old dogs there, I’m gonna be kinda pissed.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:19 pm to Porcine Human
quote:
All I'm going to say is that I've done a lot of layman's research into consciousness for fun
I have too. I guess we arrived at totally different ends of the argument.
. Fun topic to discuss nonetheless. This post was edited on 9/3/20 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:21 pm to windshieldman
quote:
YOu may be thinking of DMT. Some readings I read years ago suggest there isn't enough released at death to cause any of that. Epinephrine shouldn't cause any of that either which is what's given in cardiac arrest
That is the one that is common - and I'm certainly not versed enough to give specifics in terms of which chemicals are doing what - but have definitely had life flash before my eyes moments that impress upon me the power my brain has to produce strange reactions in high stress moments.
I've seen reports going both ways in terms of the psychoactive compounds generated by the brain and we definitely know very little about how that works right now.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:22 pm to Porcine Human
quote:
I assume they address this methodology more in depth in the full study, but on the surface this is extremely suspect.
I'd give it a closer look. It's pretty groundbreaking stuff. He's currently conducting AWARE II. Should be finished up this year.
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:24 pm to lsut2005
Hope I didn't come off as an a-hole, I just get really into these discussions
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:27 pm to Porcine Human
Haha no worries at all. Fun stuff!
Posted on 9/3/20 at 12:29 pm to Ross
quote:
If heaven exists and I can’t see my old dogs there, I’m gonna be kinda pissed.
I've said the same thing. That's one of the things I'm looking forward to. As well as at least one horse.
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