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Started By
Message
re: Abortion as a political issue
Posted on 8/28/24 at 6:35 am to Rebel
Posted on 8/28/24 at 6:35 am to Rebel
quote:
it might be necessary if mother’s life would be in jeopardy.
Even this is a false concept that the abortionists use to manipulate the public. Abortion is the intentional act of killing the child. That is not the same as the mother recieving treatment.
Sometimes the mother may need life saving treatment that might have devastating consequences to the child. But the child isn't intentionally being murdered, it's just an unfortunate side effect of the mother getting necessary treatment.
This post was edited on 8/28/24 at 6:37 am
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Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:32 am to burger bearcat
quote:
4) What would a Republican or Trump have to say or do for them not to be blamed for every single contrived, sob story about some girl that couldn't get an abortion.
Imagine being so dedicated to killing babies as to resort to this.
Reminder: Roe v. Wade didn't legalize abortion. Abortion was legal in several states. Roe made it nearly impossible to realistically restrict abortion at the state level.
Ending Roe did not criminalize abortion. It returned it to the states where the issue belongs (although there is a stronger argument for banning abortion under the 14th Amendment than there is for unfettered, abortion on demand through birth that the Dems argue, that's for GD sure).
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:43 am to burger bearcat
quote:
You want to compare an issue like abortion to something more benign like tax policy.
Yes, as do most voters outside the polar extremes.
A better analogy would be criminal law, because that deals with stripping human rights and possible death, too.
quote:
With abortion, the biggest problem with the debate is each side is talking apples and bowling balls.
Well yeah, hence me saying multiple times in this thread that the facts of this discussion are in no way clear/set.
I have also said nobody gets to unilaterally set those facts of the debate, because that framing removes any debate.
quote:
so any discussion about the topic, even in the political nature I presented in the OP, becomes impossible to overcome.
Impossible is a bit too much. Intractable is better.
But that's why the policy debate has gone on for decades and continues to go one. Same as Israel and Palestine.
quote:
, while you don't agree with the view of pro-lifers, that abortion is indeed a human being murdered, that is how we view it.
Everyone knows this is how you view it. It's no secret.
quote:
And if you view it as a clump of cells being discarded, it's hard to even have any discussions on any level beyond that.
And this is the framing I referenced earlier.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Your personal opinion shouldn't, either,
That might be the dumbest thing said on the thread so far.
So we're supposed to decide whether the campaign should sell out on this issue without personally evaluating whether we think it's worth it, or advisable, or we would be personally ethically o.k. with the results?
I have news for you. As pertains to voters making decisions"politics" is nothing more than applying the implications of public policy to your own life circumstances and choosing the courses of action that align with personal values.
A guy I know once said, "There's no right answer in politics. There's only a right answer for YOU."
That doesn't mean that more thoughtful people won't extrapolate principles that they personally value and apply them to hypotheticals and make decisions on the basis of those more abstract processes rather than (the populists) who simply vote based on the shiny object dangling in front of them.
But everyone supports or does not support political positions due to how they align with personal values.
You too, as much as you'd like for us to believe the nonsense you posted above. It's very clear what your personal stance is on this issue and your personal stance is the only reason you're advocating what you're advocating.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:54 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
So we're supposed to decide whether the campaign should sell out on this issue without personally evaluating whether we think it's worth it, or advisable, or we would be personally ethically o.k. with the results?
Its amazing how you still think this is a winning issue
I cant believe the Rs who claim to have kids love kids do not know how to handle kids (tLeft)
No wonder conservatives have just been destroyed. Thankfully this new mixed party is taking over and the purge has started
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:55 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
You want to compare an issue like abortion to something more benign like tax policy.
Yes, as do most voters outside the polar extremes.
And "most voters" don't see it that way despite their personal values, they see it that way because of their personal values (or lack thereof).
They aren't any different than the people at the "polar extremes" in that regard. Less thoughtful, less logical, more sheeplike and malleable perhaps, but otherwise no different.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:55 am to SDVTiger
quote:
This makes sense
I’ve noticed this is a common refrain when you don’t understand or can’t substantively respond.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:56 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
So we're supposed to decide whether the campaign should sell out on this issue without personally evaluating whether we think it's worth it, or advisable, or we would be personally ethically o.k. with the results?
You're supposed to decide/discuss if the campaign has a good strategy on abortion for the election (and future elections).
Our personal opinions have no real place in that discussion. Winning elections is the focus of the discussion.
This is a great example of how moral views of issues (like abortion) should be relegated to the personal level and stay out of politics.
quote:
You too, as much as you'd like for us to believe the nonsense you posted above. It's very clear what your personal stance is on this issue
And now the diversion attempts begin again.
This thread is not a referendum on my personal stance on abortion, or the personal stance of anyone posting. All that's going to do is lead to the same tired abortion debates, framing, rhetoric, and dishonesty that have been going on for decades. Hint: we're not going to solve the issue in this thread.
This thread is a discussion of abortion as a political issue, specifically within the realm of politics today and the 2024 election. Here is OP again for you:
quote:
1) what % of voters are supportive of the Trump platform but won't vote for him because of abortion? But could be swayed to vote for him if he was more pro-choice?
2) What % of pro-life voters could be lost due to being demoralized, after hearing Republicans use Democrat language like "reproductive rights"?
3) If abortion is someone's main issue, what would it take for them to be convinced to vote for Trump over Harris? Ate there even votes to be mined from this demographic that is being appealed to?
4) What would a Republican or Trump have to say or do for them not to be blamed for every single contrived, sob story about some girl that couldn't get an abortion.
5) Overall, is it more important for Trump to fire up his base, or to try and demoralize his base, by going hard after soft squishy voters? Is base turnout more important than winning the undecided?
6) Is it a smart strategy to alienate your number one grassroots, activist group that provides key support and resource in states where it's most needed like Georgia, Arizona, and Pennsyvania
NOTHING necessary about personal opinions of the issue.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:56 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I’ve noticed this is a common refrain when you don’t understand or can’t substantively respond.
Its difficult to understand stupid. I dont live in that world like you do pedofogger
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:56 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Its amazing how you still think this is a winning issue
I am now absolutely convinced that you cannot read above an elementary school level.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:57 am to SDVTiger
quote:
Its amazing how you still think this is a winning issue
It's why they keep trying to turn this into a framed debate on personal stances.
They are too emotionally invested in the topic to analyze it as a political issue.
quote:
No wonder conservatives have just been destroyed.
Abortion is one of the primary issues that has hurt the expansion of the non-DEM brand in US politics.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:57 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
They aren't any different than the people at the "polar extremes" in that regard. Less thoughtful, less logical, more sheeplike and malleable perhaps, but otherwise no different.
And now you're framing the electorate
That will win elections
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:58 am to SDVTiger
The gulf between us is pretty huge for sure
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:58 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
So we're supposed to decide whether the campaign should sell out on this issue without personally evaluating whether we think it's worth it, or advisable, or we would be personally ethically o.k. with the results?
It's fine if you think it's murder, the most important issue in the world, and the right shouldn't bend on it. Just don't cry when it hurts the right politically.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 7:58 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
They are too emotionally invested in the topic to analyze it as a political issue.
Its really pathetic. How long have they been fighting the good fight?
Only to be beat down worse than LSU in 2012 BCS game
quote:
It's fine if you think it's murder, the most important issue in the world, and the right shouldn't bend on it. Just don't cry when it hurts the right politically
This post was edited on 8/28/24 at 8:00 am
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:01 am to Bunk Moreland
quote:
It's fine if you think it's murder, the most important issue in the world, and the right shouldn't bend on it. Just don't cry when it hurts the right politically.
We don’t?
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:01 am to Pettifogger
quote:
We don’t?
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:03 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Our personal opinions have no real place in that discussion. Winning elections is the focus of the discussion.
O.k.,
then why not drop all positions and just promise people free stuff?
It would be the best way to win the election.
So why not?
The answer is obvious. Let's see if you have the guts to say it.
quote:
his is a great example of how moral views of issues (like abortion) should be relegated to the personal level and stay out of politics.
I was wrong. THIS is the dumbest thing said so far on this thread.
You're now like those idiots who post from time to time saying, "You can't legislate morality!" Completely ignoring that many if not most laws are codified morality.
quote:
And now the diversion attempts begin again.
That's obviously not a "diversion attempt," it's pointing out your blatant hypocrisy on claiming that personal positions should have no place in the discussion when your personal position clearly does.
quote:
NOTHING necessary about personal opinions of the issue.
Sure. Except numbers 2-4.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:05 am to Bunk Moreland
quote:
It's fine if you think it's murder, the most important issue in the world, and the right shouldn't bend on it. Just don't cry when it hurts the right politically.
Deal.
I'm not the one who defends The Man Child for every stupid thing he says that hurts him politically with the plan of blaming "massive cheating" if he loses.
If you're looking for a whiner in that regard you've got the wrong guy.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:06 am to SDVTiger
I readily acknowledge being pro life is politically disadvantageous - so interested to see where you go with this one
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