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Started By
Message
re: Addressing A Common Talking Point On Here That Palestine Is A Modern Creation…
Posted on 11/24/25 at 5:42 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 11/24/25 at 5:42 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
The population in Gaza is Arab. Arabs are *not* native to the territory
Yes, the vast majority of Gazans today are Palestinian Arabs. However, the assertion that Arabs are not native to the territory is misleading: Palestinian Arabs have maintained deep cultural, linguistic, and familial ties in Gaza for more than a millennium, tracing back to the Muslim Conquest.
Additionally, over 30% of the Jews in Israel are not considered to be descended from Middle Eastern Jews; this portion of the Jewish diaspora is primarily comprised of Ashkenazi Jews. A significant percentage of these Ashkenazi Jews migrated to Israel after the establishment of the modern state in 1948.
And yes, I read your earlier post about the genetic lineage of Ashkenazi Jews. While Ashkenazi Jews do share a common genetic lineage with both Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, the cultural roots of Ashkenazi Jews are deeply entwined with both European history and culture, leading to their classification as being of European descent.
In short, both Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and the various Jewish lineages in Israel have deep — though distinct — historical and cultural connections to the land. Acknowledging the complexity of these competing claims is a necessary first step in finding a peaceful resolution to the situation in Gaza.
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Posted on 11/24/25 at 6:07 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
So it was all Jewish land in the beginning, ruled by Jews. With Jerusalem as its capital
Then it was the Babylonians, the Persians, the Macedonians, the Romans, the Byzantiums, The Moslems, then Turks, then Israel was created.
It was originally a Hebrew state ruled by Jews, and the powers that be restored them to leadership. And no one has ever done the same for the "Palestinian" people. Who already have homelands in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi, Yemen, according to their DNA.
The Mongols made some incursions into the Levant too.
Yet returning to the modern era, who exactly are the “powers that be”? And on what claim did these “powers” restore it to Israel?
I asked a similar question above and received no answer.
Posted on 11/24/25 at 10:42 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
Yet returning to the modern era, who exactly are the “powers that be”?
The victorious Allies of WW2. Thats what conquerors get to do. Draw new lines on maps. Remember Germany being sliced up?
quote:
And on what claim did these “powers” restore it to Israel?
The UN official history that the Jews united the land under King David. And after what the Axis powers did to them as a people, they deserved the right to be restored to the homeland that they had a legit history of origin
It aint rocket surgery
Posted on 11/25/25 at 8:00 am to RobbBobb
quote:
The victorious Allies of WW2. Thats what conquerors get to do. Draw new lines on maps. Remember Germany being sliced up?
The UN official history that the Jews united the land under King David. And after what the Axis powers did to them as a people, they deserved the right to be restored to the homeland that they had a legit history of origin
If the victorious allied powers believed that the victims of the Holocaust deserved a restored homeland, then why wasn’t this new Jewish homeland established in Germany, given that most Holocaust victims were European Jews and their oppressors were primarily German?
Putting that issue aside, I agree that a long-standing geographic and historical name indicates a form of historical continuity and belonging for the people living in that particular area. When generation after generation of people have existed in a particular place for hundreds of years, that place holds some measure of grounded historical significance.
If the residents of Palestine have a long-standing historical identity with Gaza, it thus seems they too have a legitimate claim for statehood. Yet if the claim that “Palestine existed as a name and historical location for a millennia” is not politically meaningful in granting nationhood status, it implies that Israel’s modern political existence is uniquely tied to outside political considerations, such as current geopolitical realities, thus existing independent of other geographical, historical, and cultural factors.
If these factors are seen as separate from political legitimacy, it also means that ancient Jewish polities or ancient Israelite kingdoms are irrelevant to modern political discussions about Israel’s right to exist. You can’t have it both ways.
If Israel does indeed have a right to be granted nationhood status because of a long-standing historical claim to a particular geopolitical area, why isn’t such a privilege granted to Palestine? In short: if Israel’s nationhood is considered historically legitimate, on what basis is a Palestinian claim to nationhood considered illegitimate?
Posted on 11/25/25 at 9:54 am to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
why wasn’t this new Jewish homeland established in Germany,
Are you on the spectrum? Or even being serious?
Look at whats happened since. Germany is reunited, and yet you would have an Israeli state right in the middle of that, where they had no historic connection, and the Germans have previously tried to eliminate them from Earth
I might just need to start ignoring all your posts. Youre just shitposting with this logic
quote:
why isn’t such a privilege granted to Palestine?
Because they never did it for themselves. They were nomads forever. They only want to start shite because it will hurt the Joos
That solution would be like giving an area in the Midwest to form a new Indian country. ALL Indians, most of whom had no historical connection to the area, would be granted nation status and allowed to move there. From S. America, C. America, Canada. And when they run out of room? Then what? The US version of Gaza? Creeping over the lines into the US?
The Palestinians never cared for a nation/state. The US Indians never created a nation/state. But Israel did. So one was returned to them. Not magically created for them
Posted on 11/25/25 at 12:15 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
Germany is reunited, and yet you would have an Israeli state right in the middle of that, where they had no historic connection, and the Germans have previously tried to eliminate them from Earth
The Jews have no historical connection to Europe? As stated above, the Ashkenazi Jews — the primary Jewish ethnic group targeted by the Nazis — are deeply entwined with European history and are thus culturally considered to be of European descent.
Indeed, though the Yiddish language absorbs linguistic elements from both Hebraic and Slavic tongues, Yiddish is primarily classified as a Germanic language. Further, the Yiddish culture was developed over many centuries in Europe and — though Jewish — is considered a uniquely European culture.
The Jewish people further developed extensive networks of trade and commerce in many of the major cities in Europe, especially in Germany, Poland and Lithuania. The Jewish people also have had a profound influence on European intellectual history: from science to philosophy to the arts, the examples would be too extensive to list.
To say that Jews — including the Jewish communities targeted for extermination by Hitler — have no historic connection to Europe is erasing the entire Ashkenazi tradition, which is a major part of Jewish history. Your entire premise undermines your point and simply is a gross distortion of the historical record: it is simply indisputable that the Ashkenazi Jews have deep rooted historical and cultural ties to Europe.
Now, I firmly support Israel’s right to exist in the Middle East. Yet the historical point still remains: the victorious allies could have created a homeland in Europe specifically for the Jewish communities targeted for Nazi extermination.
quote:
might just need to start ignoring all your posts. Youre just shitposting with this logic
Ohhhhh — I see. So these are the rules of the game?
OK! Fine by me!
I am here to make friends and if not friends, frienemies. We can agree to disagree without resorting to name calling.
I indeed have tried repeatedly to have a civil conversation with you Robb yet all you can offer is an ad hominem attack. This emotional outburst simply is evidence of your utter inability to formulate a substantive counter to the legitimate issues I raised about the complex historical and cultural issues surrounding the issue of Palestinian nationhood.
So with that said, f#ck off: you are a blithering historical ignoramus! You have revealed yourself to be wholly ignorant when it comes to the deep cultural roots that Jews have in Europe and frankly it is a waste of time to attempt to have a meaningful dialogue with you on this matter.
See how that works? Two can play your game! You ALWAYS will GET what you GIVE with me.
This post was edited on 11/25/25 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 11/25/25 at 8:34 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
The Jews have no historical connection to Europe? As stated above, the Ashkenazi Jews
Which came first, King David or the Ashkenazi Jews?
You have to be trolling with this
Where in Jewish historical documents; Torah, Talmud, Tanakh, Mishnah, Tosefta, etc does it mention the Askenazi Jews? Why would anyone from another sect of Judaism see Germany as their homeland, based on a subgroup that formed in the 10th century AD?
Posted on 11/26/25 at 6:42 am to RobbBobb
quote:
Why would anyone from another sect of Judaism see Germany as their homeland, based on a subgroup that formed in the 10th century AD?
I’m not talking about other sects of Judaism: I am talking about the Ashkenazi Jews that were victims of the Holocaust. You were the one who cited the persecution of the Jews in Europe during WWII as the justifications for creating Israel.
I then specifically asked why the Allies did not establish a Jewish homeland in Germany, given that both the victims and the perpetrators of the Holocaust were European. Yet I said nothing WHATEVER about importing Middle Eastern Jews into Europe.
And that leads to an inherent paradox in your own premise. As mentioned above, while European Jews share a genetic lineage with Middle Eastern Jews, the culture of Ashkenazi Jews aligns more closely with European culture than with Middle Eastern cultures.
The creation of a Jewish ethnostate in the Middle East led to a significant influx of European Jews seeking to live in the newly created homeland. This in turn resulted in a wave of immigrants arriving in the Middle East who had little cultural connection to that region.
The large-scale immigration of Ashkenazi Jews post-1948 indeed introduced different religious customs, communal structures, and secular ideologies to the Holy Land. The Ashkenazi population’s secular and wholly modernist outlook influenced broader societal norms in the extant Jewish population in the land, leading to increased secularization within these communities.
The influx of Ashkenazi Jews significantly impacted the religious culture of Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, radically changing the Jewish culture in the area. In other words, the creation of the modern state of Israel — and the influx of European Jews into the Middle East — actually contributed to the very concerns you mentioned above.
Posted on 11/26/25 at 9:49 am to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
This in turn resulted in a wave of immigrants arriving in the Middle East who had little cultural connection to that region.
This makes no sense
Jews forever, have kept their cultural ID. Moving to the homeland was an answer to century old prayers
Stop trying to westernize their culture. They never wanted to live in Europe. They never assimilated the culture of Europe. And when their historic homeland was revitalized, they flocked to it
The reason conflict arose at all, was because their bastard cousins wanted them all dead (just like the Nazis did). End of story. And a major reason why the fled to Europe to begin with
Posted on 11/26/25 at 9:43 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
This makes no sense
Jews forever, have kept their cultural ID. Moving to the homeland was an answer to century old prayers
Stop trying to westernize their culture. They never wanted to live in Europe. They never assimilated the culture of Europe. And when their historic homeland was revitalized, they flocked to it
The reason conflict arose at all, was because their bastard cousins wanted them all dead (just like the Nazis did). End of story. And a major reason why the fled to Europe to begin with
I am not trying to “westernize” the culture of the Ashkenazi Jews. I am simply stating the plain truth that Ashkenazi Jews are indelibly connected to European culture.
I stated above the many reasons why Ashkenazi Jews are considered culturally connected to Europe. This is not my opinion but a documented historical fact: as this article indicates, the Ashkenazi Jews are irrevocably connected to European cultural and indeed had a tremendous influence on that culture:
Ashkenazi Jewish People and Culture…
In summary, the Ashkenazi Jews settled in the Rhineland over a millennium ago and developed a distinct culture with discrete Jewish religious customs. Over the centuries, these Ashkenazi Jews migrated east, spreading their unique Yiddish culture across Central and Eastern Europe, contributing greatly to modern Jewish identity and indeed the modern world itself.
Yet you claimed the persecution of the European Jews in WWII was a justification for creating a Jewish homeland in the Middle East while also simultaneously claiming that Jews have no real connection to Europe. You can’t logically hold both positions at once: these claims contradict each other.
If Israel’s legitimacy results from WWII trauma, the justification for Israel’s creation is geopolitical/moral. However, if Israel’s legitimacy results from history and it’s “connection” to the land, the justification for Israel’s creation is cultural/historical.
These two arguments are based on wholly different — and wholly conflicting — premises. And necessarily lead to conflicting implications about the question of Palestinian statehood.
If historical “connection” to the land indeed grants Israel legitimacy, the Palestinians — like the Jews — have legitimate claims to a Middle Eastern homeland. Further, if a historical “connection” to the land grants legitimacy, then European Jews have a suspect claim since Ashkenazi Jews are more culturally connected to Europe than the Middle East.
Yet if geopolitical factors grant legitimacy — that is victors draw the maps — then the historical arguments are irrelevant. And once again, if persecution of the European Jews in WWII granted legitimacy for a claim for a Jewish homeland, it would have made more logical sense to establish a Jewish homeland in Europe since both the victims and the perpetrators were European.
Again, you can’t have it both ways: a logically coherent justification for nationhood can’t rely on contradictory premises. In closing, the justification for a modern nation-state cannot selectively pick and choose historical, cultural, geopolitical or moral arguments and be logically consistent.
At this point, I am simply repeating myself. So you can have the last word if you so choose.
Posted on 11/27/25 at 10:01 am to Toomer Deplorable
Lets just pretend that Germany wasnt destroyed and being split among distrustful factions until 1949. Which side exactly was going to cave and agree to settle the Jews on their part in 1947?
Revisionist history always sucks. The British empire had actually started the process of building a Jewish "homeland" in 1917. So after WW2 it was a no-brainer as to where to place it (see: Balfour Declaration of 1917)
Revisionist history always sucks. The British empire had actually started the process of building a Jewish "homeland" in 1917. So after WW2 it was a no-brainer as to where to place it (see: Balfour Declaration of 1917)
quote:
The British introduced restrictions on Jewish immigration to the area in 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to the area. By the end of World War II, 31% of the population of was already Jewish
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