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Message
re: AP: Robert E. Lee a racist icon
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:29 pm to AU86
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:29 pm to AU86
quote:
Looking back over the whole policy of reconstruction, it seems to me that the wisest thing would have been to have continued for some time the military rule. Sensible Southern men see now that there was no government so frugal, so just, and fair as what they had under our generals. That would have enabled the Southern people to pull themselves together and repair material losses. As to depriving them, even for a time, of suffrage, that was our right as a conqueror, and it was a mild penalty for the stupendous crime of treason.
Ulysses S. Grant
What were you saying about him not believing they committed treason?
1
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:29 pm to magildachunks
quote:
Grant thought he was mediocre and not even the best general he fought against in that war.
Cold Harbor
The Wilderness
Spotsylvania Court House
Provide any evidence that Grant thought that he was mediocre. And who exactly did Grant think was better? I guess John Pemberton maybe? Perhaps John Floyd or Gideon Pillow?
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:32 pm to Strannix
He was an average general. He's reverred because he was the best the south had after Stonewall got kilt by his own man.
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:40 pm to AU86
quote:
He possessed every virtue of other great commanders without their vices.
Lee was just a good enough general to cause a blood bath every time.
The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:43 pm to WhiskeyPapa
I was wondering when you would sign on as WhiskeyPapa instead of Magildachunks or whatever that name is.
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:44 pm to Minnesota Tiger
No, that wouldn't be true.
Grant made his name with maneuver warfare. Look at his campaigns in the west.
When he faced Lee however, he found himself unable to operate the same way. Lee always managed to get here before he could. Lee was able to both predict his moves, and get his army there first.
That, and political pressure from Washington, explains why he embraced attrition, and bleeding the Confederate Army.
Grant made his name with maneuver warfare. Look at his campaigns in the west.
When he faced Lee however, he found himself unable to operate the same way. Lee always managed to get here before he could. Lee was able to both predict his moves, and get his army there first.
That, and political pressure from Washington, explains why he embraced attrition, and bleeding the Confederate Army.
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:44 pm to AU86
Not the same person
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:51 pm to Lima Whiskey
Wars won
Grant: 1
Lee: 0
Stop hurting yourself twisting every which way to defend losers.
Grant: 1
Lee: 0
Stop hurting yourself twisting every which way to defend losers.
Posted on 8/13/17 at 10:57 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
If Displaced Buckeye were alive in 1776, he'd be a British Loyalist and publicly torturing people for opposing the Stamp Act.
Says the dude vehemently defending traitors because you happened to be born in the same state.
Not surprising, with your history of hero worshipping traitors.
Posted on 8/13/17 at 11:01 pm to DyeHardDylan
We love the great Robert E. Lee - a hero to any true Patriot 
Posted on 8/13/17 at 11:15 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
the most immoral and heinous institution in our nation's history.
Ehhhh...we are aborting millions...by choice though, so that's ok
We also have the death penalty...
And the wars to destroy the ME and protect the petrodollar ...that's not great either...
The purge of the natives wasn't fantastic either...
We gave the world the Abomb, too...
This post was edited on 8/13/17 at 11:18 pm
Posted on 8/13/17 at 11:21 pm to OchoDedos
quote:
He sacrificed himself for the honour of Virginia. No truer a calling.
I understand that sacrifice and honour are an anathema to today's blissfully ignorant set.
Much like the ISIS militants are sacrificing themselves for honor too. He may have been a good man.. but he tried to defend the souths preservation of slavery.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:25 am to IAmReality
quote:
The North's biggest fear was that the South would basically dissolve their armies and engage in a gorilla campaign that would last decades if not centuries.
That's what should have happened.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:26 am to OchoDedos
quote:
The Snowflakes are slipping, or just too stupid to know what John Brown was.
They only know what they are told by the MSM and their political leaders. Truth is not something in which liberals are interested.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:28 am to WheelRoute
quote:
He rebelled against his country and killed thousands of Americans in defense of slavery.
Keep buying the bullshite they feed you in school. It'll get you far in life.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:33 am to WheelRoute
quote:
When he embraced VA and the CSA, he embraced what they were fighting for and what they stood for and their economic system. Period.
You really don't understand the founding principles of our country. The states were supposed to have more power than the federal government. You can thank the authoritarian Lincoln for subjugating all of us to the power of an overreaching federal government and turning the US into a mockery of what was intended.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:35 am to magildachunks
quote:
Maybe the South shouldn't have attacked the North first.
The first act of the war was the North refusing to vacate a fort in territory owned by the CSA. But don't let facts get in the way. Ignorance is exactly what the establishment wants from you.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:48 am to magildachunks
quote:
What were you saying about him not believing they committed treason?
Grant certainly thought many of the rebels had committed treason.
What he was very opposed to was that the parole that he gave to the rebels in the Army of Northern Virginia be violated.
How US Civil War rebels got away with treason
During and after the Civil War, Northern states and leaders were able to reconcile a heartfelt hatred of the Confederate Rebels with an overwhelming record of leniency concerning treason, a new book argues.
The US Constitution defines treason as levying war against the government and aiding and abetting its enemies. By that definition, every Confederate soldier in the Civil War—as well as every political leader—was a traitor.
But no one was executed for treason, and Confederate President Jefferson Davis was not even tried for the crime.
“The literature of the Civil War era is massive, but a study of how Northerners conceived of, and acted upon, treason was missing,” says William A. Blair, professor of history at Penn State and author of With Malice Toward Some: Treason and Loyalty in the Civil War Era.
Disloyal acts
Treason occurred as a topic in public discourse—pamphlets, newspapers, public gatherings, and the like—as often as commentary on the progress of the war and the concern for soldiers, Blair says.
Popular notions of treason, as opposed to court decisions, drove policymaking and caused members of the public sometimes to take matters into their own hands, such as storming a newspaper office or punishing an outspoken minister.
A lack of government bureaucracy and the extreme threat to the nation enhanced the sense of emergency that could sometimes lead to egregious actions, Blair notes.
There was no Department of Homeland Security or FBI or any other federal agency to identify treasonous or disloyal acts. It was not clear what level of government—federal, state, or local—could make an arrest, or who should decide what acts were disloyal.
Criticizing Lincoln
And it was unclear at the time what constituted the boundaries of loyalty and disloyalty.
“Spying, running guns, committing sabotage, and similarly blatant acts were obviously treasonous,” Blair says. “But what about criticizing President Lincoln and his administration’s prosecution of the war? What about selling food to people in one of the states in rebellion? Was that giving aid and comfort to the enemy?”
There were numerous and often confusing attempts in the North to deal with the issue. A joint Congressional committee, for example, investigated a series of Union generals who were accused of being soft on rebels and who had to defend themselves from suspicion of treason.
In other cases, military commanders determined treasonous acts. Civilians were liable to arrest and imprisonment by military commissions for speaking out against the war or Lincoln, or expressing sympathy for the Southern cause.
Punished but not executed
“It is not a stretch to say that speech, whether written or spoken, was central to determining disloyalty in the minds of Unionists,” Blair says.
President Lincoln himself in 1863 identified a list of top Confederate generals that included such iconic figures as Robert E. Lee and Joseph E. Johnston who deserved to be imprisoned for treason.
Hundreds of citizens in the Northern states were arrested by the military and local authorities for supposedly disloyal acts ranging from cheering for Jefferson Davis to aiding Union army deserters. Blair includes three lengthy appendices that suggest the nature and outcome of these proceedings.
Yet as passionate as many Northerners were in prosecuting traitors, their passion failed to overcome leniency. Thus while many cases of alleged disloyalty among civilians resulted in punishment, none ended with execution. Confederate soldiers of all ranks were generally paroled and faced no formal charges of treason.
Heroes in the end
Northerners took a pragmatic approach to the war’s end. They realized the impracticality of trying thousands of Southerners for disloyalty in states where juries were unlikely to deliver guilty verdicts, and that continued cries of treason would interfere with the more important task of nation-building.
Ironically, the lenient approach allowed Robert E. Lee and other Confederate leaders to become heroic figures to later generations of Americans of all sections, says Blair, citing words written by Union Gen. George Thomas in 1868: “The crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of the rebellion might go down in history hand-in-hand with the defenders of the (US) Government.”
LINK
Posted on 8/14/17 at 5:00 am to chickenpotpie
quote:I've tried until I was blue in the face to explain to people just how dramatic this is. Before this a State could in theory always say "frick this, I'm out." That forced the federal government and other states to respect the powers of the individual State. As the system stands now, the State has zero power against the federal government - what power it has can always be taken by the Feds with no recourse, therefore it has no real power. That is exactly what our Founding Fathers didn't want.
You really don't understand the founding principles of our country. The states were supposed to have more power than the federal government. You can thank the authoritarian Lincoln for subjugating all of us to the power of an overreaching federal government and turning the US into a mockery of what was intended.
I wonder how many people on this board would support the EU assembling an army and invading GB so as to force them back into the EU?
Posted on 8/14/17 at 5:03 am to chickenpotpie
quote:
He rebelled against his country and killed thousands of Americans in defense of slavery.
Keep buying the bullshite they feed you in school. It'll get you far in life.
Lee went so far as to address the Virginia legislature after its so-called secession in his U.S. Army uniform.
That is treason.
Lee was not a very good general. He is presented as a good general the way Rommel is called the Desert Fox by the Brits. It is a way of making them look less like idiots.
This post was edited on 8/14/17 at 5:04 am
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