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re: Stacey Abrams claims Bible supports abortion
Posted on 8/28/22 at 11:08 pm to Bass Tiger
Posted on 8/28/22 at 11:08 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
It’s difficult for me to know what Dr Turek would specifically say but In your case he might inquire if you were indeed a born again Christian/Believer what caused you to reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Age and education. And I don't mean that to be arrogant. I've seen a lot in my life, and the more I've experienced and learned, the further away from religion I grew.
0
Posted on 8/28/22 at 11:09 pm to Wolfhound45
Got it.
Posted on 8/28/22 at 11:39 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Since I have a kindred soul to discuss this with, what do you think of the possibility of a person coming to faith in Christ and then later rejecting their faith? Not “losing” their salvation through sinful acts but actually having faith and then later making a conscious decision to reject it.
This is a difficult subject because some really great religious scholars and pastors believe once saved you’re sealed as a child of God. I’m not great at recalling chapter and verse of the Bible but there is scripture that to some supports this belief. As far as someone rejecting their faith which is really rejecting the Savior and somehow they are still saved….that’s a tough one to understand or grasp from my perspective. The Bible says the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
I’m going on my 4th time through the Bible and I’m not 100% convinced of the sealed for eternity, Charles Stanley preaches this sealed belief and I love Charles Stanley.
I have a difficult time believing a righteous and just Creator is going to allow someone eternal Salvation if after being saved they rejected Christ as their Savior, went on a 3 day bender, killed themselves and three innocent children in a head on collision. The example for my argument was a bit extreme but you get the point. The argument by the folks who believe in sealed for life will say it was a false conversion.
My personal belief is if you’re truly saved you understand shortly after your Salvation the sanctification process will be the most challenging aspect of being a Christian…..it goes on until death. The difficult thing about sanctification is you’ll never achieve Christ’s perfected state in this fallen world but on the other hand you have everyday until your last breath to continue working towards being a more righteous and morally obedient servant of Christ.
quote:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [a]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
This ^^^^ is the real battle. There are few people who claim to be Christians that don’t have moments of doubt and confusion….their faith is tested and they once again must make a decision, rely on their own reasoning or humble themselves, pray and ask for the Lord’s forgiveness and for direction. The troubles we face in our lives become much more disruptive when we begin to rely on our own reasoning and we disregard what God would have us do. If you’re having increased moments of unsettled thoughts and feelings it’s likely because you’re not spending enough time and effort talking with the Lord…..ignoring these thoughts and feelings can cause a further separation between the Believer and God……essentially those uneasy thoughts and feelings are an invitation from God to come pray and let’s reason.
Pardon me for wandering away from your main inquiry about eternal salvation and rambling on about other things but as I stated this is a difficult subject. The reasons people who at one time considered themselves born again Christian and later reject the Gospel is far ranging, from false conversions to simple pride and arrogance…,,whether they are sealed as a child of God regardless of the life they live after rejecting Christ will truly be revealed upon death.
Posted on 8/29/22 at 12:30 am to mahdragonz
Nm, others said it better.
This post was edited on 8/29/22 at 6:53 am
Posted on 8/29/22 at 1:21 am to Rex Feral
Seems like it addresses gluttony, IIRC.
Posted on 8/29/22 at 1:51 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Certainly you must be familiar with Deut 32, being such an Old Testament scholar, no? That one starts out with how much of a bad$%# YHWH is, how he inherited Israel from El Elyon god most high (head of the Canaanite Pantheon, go read some Qumran scrolls…) and towards the end, my favorite part about what he’s going to do to the other Elohim and their humans who worship them reads like this (ESV):
Gen. 14:22 identified YHWH as El Elyon. It reads: "But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth." I think this is the first mention of El Elyon in the Bible so a canonical reading treats El Elyon as a title for YHWH.
Where are you getting your ideas? Seems foreign to the text.
Posted on 8/29/22 at 5:57 am to Bass Tiger
Thanks for the forthright reply. I am not struggling with this in my own life, but in my understanding of the scriptures. You used a well worn phrase that I have held to since my salvation in 1982. However, I am increasingly troubled by these two passages. Just wanted some additional insights.
Based on my study of 1 & 2 Thessalonians, I have long ago abandoned a cherished teaching, the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. I simply cannot make it fit in doctrine. I am inclined to believe in a post-tribulational gathering of the saints.
Appreciate the conversation.
Based on my study of 1 & 2 Thessalonians, I have long ago abandoned a cherished teaching, the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. I simply cannot make it fit in doctrine. I am inclined to believe in a post-tribulational gathering of the saints.
Appreciate the conversation.
Posted on 8/29/22 at 6:58 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
Gen. 14:22 identified YHWH as El Elyon. It reads: "But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth."
But according to Exodus 6:3, Abraham did not know Gods proper name yet. Either exodus 6:3 is false or Genesis 14:22 is erroneous.
Exodus 6:3…
2 God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them.
When the “compiler” merged the E, J, P, and D scrolls after return from Babylonian exile, he did a pretty good job but not perfect job. For another easy example - Genesis 1:1-2:3 is from the E (“Elohim” source of northern kingdom of Israel) and Genesis 2:4 starts as the J (“Yahwist” source of Judah). The compiler left much of the text intact, therefore creating new documents which contradict other parts of the same document. Start at Genesis 1:1, where there is a creation account of Elohim, and when you get to 2:4, suddenly there’s a whole new creation account with the sequence of events being very different from the first, with the use of YHWH or YHWH Elohim.
At the time most of the books were composed, the Judeans and Israelites were polytheists. Read Deut 32 and Psalm 82 just for example which explain how El Elyon divided the nations and assigned each to be ruled by his sons, with YHWH inheriting his Jacob/Israel.
Posted on 8/29/22 at 7:36 am to Wolfhound45
quote:
Since I have a kindred soul to discuss this with, what do you think of the possibility of a person coming to faith in Christ and then later rejecting their faith? Not “losing” their salvation through sinful acts but actually having faith and then later making a conscious decision to reject it.
Even though it might not seem like sinful acts that cause a man to reject his faith, I bet a closer inspection of activities that led up to this rejection would show some slow pattern of falling away and an embracing of teachings contrary to biblical doctrine.
quote:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [a]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
The second one seems to me easier to reconcile. I think it’s simply an assurance that God keeps us saved after we are saved. It explains that if it were possible to fall away, that person could not be sauce again, because that would require Christ to die a second time, when the Bible clearly says he died once for sin, then sat down at the right hand of the Father.
Because the Bible constantly tells us that a Christian will endure to the end, it is apparent that real saving faith is a faith that continues until we die. If one falls away, never to follow Jesus again, we can conclude that his conversion was never real.
The Bible says we can have assurance of our salvation, but we must do things to enhance these assurances.
Crucify the flesh daily, pray, read the word, seek God’s guidance, bring our thoughts captive to Christ, not forsaking the fellowship with the brethren.
I bet those moments of doubt about your salvation never comes when you are faithfully doing the things I just listed.
This post was edited on 8/29/22 at 7:59 am
Posted on 8/29/22 at 7:45 am to Wolfhound45
quote:
They did not support your premise that God commanded the Israelites to abort their firstborn children.
Hes unhinged.
People believe what they choose to believe. The objectivity of reality has been blurred.
This is an interesting topic. The way we view reality is a survival technique. We can each look at an object, describe it exactly like the other person, but it may have a totally different appearance and meaning. Our mind flips everything to the point it makes sense to us.
Religion and politics fit. We all see it through lenses that make sense and reject what doesnt which creates a very unique perspective and experience.
LINK
“We don’t construct the whole world at once. We construct what we need in the moment.”.
“We do not see reality as it is. We are shaped with tricks and hacks that keep us alive.”
“Evolution has given us an interface that hides reality and guides adaptive behavior.”
Posted on 9/9/22 at 1:25 am to Squirrelmeister
Squirrelmeister, it would be to you advantage to jettison the documentary hypothesis and focus on the final form of the OT Text. IOW, instead of verse hopping, read it as a text.
For example, you write, "But according to Exodus 6:3, Abraham did not know Gods proper name yet. Either exodus 6:3 is false or Genesis 14:22 is erroneous."
But you've leaped over Ex. 3:14ff where Yahweh cements His relationship with Moses at the burning bush. He reveals as himself there as "I AM WHO I AM." The name YHWH is based on the Hebrew verb HYH ("to be"). This invests a much deeper and richer meaning into the name Yahweh than Abraham knew. Or maybe consider did Yahweh reveal himself to Moses at the burning bush in a way different than He did to Abraham? Ans: yes.
And because He did, the name Yahweh would from then on have a deeper meaning for Moses than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew.
And again, because you're not taking Gen 14:22 with you when you read Dt. 32 you're forgetting that Yahweh is El Elyon.
Question for you, are you sure the name El Elyon appears in your Canaanite literature?
For example, you write, "But according to Exodus 6:3, Abraham did not know Gods proper name yet. Either exodus 6:3 is false or Genesis 14:22 is erroneous."
But you've leaped over Ex. 3:14ff where Yahweh cements His relationship with Moses at the burning bush. He reveals as himself there as "I AM WHO I AM." The name YHWH is based on the Hebrew verb HYH ("to be"). This invests a much deeper and richer meaning into the name Yahweh than Abraham knew. Or maybe consider did Yahweh reveal himself to Moses at the burning bush in a way different than He did to Abraham? Ans: yes.
And because He did, the name Yahweh would from then on have a deeper meaning for Moses than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew.
And again, because you're not taking Gen 14:22 with you when you read Dt. 32 you're forgetting that Yahweh is El Elyon.
Question for you, are you sure the name El Elyon appears in your Canaanite literature?
Posted on 9/9/22 at 3:47 am to Rex Feral
It does. It's like the 11th commandment...thou shall have unprotected sex and kill the result
Posted on 9/9/22 at 6:50 am to AlwysATgr
Can’t jettison the documentary hypothesis because I believe it to be true. That belief is not based on faith, but rather clear evidence. Even if you deny it, you can see plain as day that there are differences and edits (especially deletions) of the MT as opposed to the LXX and the DSS. Some of the DSS scrolls found at Ugarit even include several differing versions of themselves.
Is it possible one or more editors of the scrolls at some point inserted YHWH at points where there was just Elohim, to make YHWH Elohim? Look at Deut 32… MT says “sons of Israel” whereas LXX and DSS says “sons of EL”.
I realize there are some (edited) verses that try to pass off YHWH as being El Elyon and El Shaddai. Those were edited for a political reason to get Israel (El as their chief god, hence Isra-EL) and Judah (YHWH as son of EL but now their cheif) to worship the same single god. The editors purposely conflated the two.
However there are versus they forgot to edit or didn’t have access at the time. After all, there was no Bible but an assortment of scrolls (with differing versions at that). Deut 32 and Psalms 82 and 89 are just some of the great examples that preserve the true religion.
YHWH inherited Jacob (Israel) from his father El Elyon (Deut 32). At some point (psalm 82) El Elyon will chastise YHWHs siblings for mishandling the earth, and will strip them of their mortality and give the whole earth to YHWH. Who in the skies (psalm 89) is as badass as YHWH? All throughout the Bible YHWH gets pissed off at and kills people for worshipping other gods. YHWH is a jealous god - it says so in the commandments.
What is YHWH jealous of? Why exalt YHWH over all the other heavenly beings in the sky? Why would YHWH judge the other gods? It all says so in the text. None of that would make any logical sense if there weren’t other real gods. YHWH is the God of gods. He is NOT the only god. It would be blasphemous to say “YHWH you are such a bad arse, much more powerful and righteous than those imaginary beings which don’t even really exist”. YHWH isn’t jealous of imaginary things. He’s jealous of El Elyon, Asherah (Queen of Heaven), Ba’El, Chemosh, Milcom, and more. Israelites and other Canaanites were polytheists, but YHWH wanted to be the only on worshipped and venerated… that is evident throughout the Bible and is a clear theme that YHWH is judging and punishing the other gods and those that worship them.
Deny they were polytheists? Think all those figurines, idols, asherah poles, and inscriptions archaeologists found are fake? Read the Bible and tell me how many different gods the text says (wise) King Solomon was worshipping at the temple in Jerusalem.
If YHWH was so powerful though, why would he even be jealous? Ah but he wasn’t even that powerful. The god of Moab - Chemosh - whipped his arse in 2 Kings 3:27. He’s jealous because he’s on a relatively even field competing with other sons (and daughters) of El Elyon.
Exodus 6:3 clearly states Abraham did not know Him as YHWH. Genesis 14:22 says Abraham said (that the following words came out of Abraham’s mouth) “I have lifted my hand to the Lord (YHWH), God Most High (El Elyon)”. The editor tries his best to conflate the two gods, but makes a mistake. If Abraham didn’t know YHWH by his name, how could he have used the name YHWH when talking to the king of Sodom? Abraham was actually talking about El Elyon, the actual god most high and father of the gods, and receives a blessing from Melchizedek - priest of El Elyon.
Is it possible one or more editors of the scrolls at some point inserted YHWH at points where there was just Elohim, to make YHWH Elohim? Look at Deut 32… MT says “sons of Israel” whereas LXX and DSS says “sons of EL”.
I realize there are some (edited) verses that try to pass off YHWH as being El Elyon and El Shaddai. Those were edited for a political reason to get Israel (El as their chief god, hence Isra-EL) and Judah (YHWH as son of EL but now their cheif) to worship the same single god. The editors purposely conflated the two.
However there are versus they forgot to edit or didn’t have access at the time. After all, there was no Bible but an assortment of scrolls (with differing versions at that). Deut 32 and Psalms 82 and 89 are just some of the great examples that preserve the true religion.
YHWH inherited Jacob (Israel) from his father El Elyon (Deut 32). At some point (psalm 82) El Elyon will chastise YHWHs siblings for mishandling the earth, and will strip them of their mortality and give the whole earth to YHWH. Who in the skies (psalm 89) is as badass as YHWH? All throughout the Bible YHWH gets pissed off at and kills people for worshipping other gods. YHWH is a jealous god - it says so in the commandments.
What is YHWH jealous of? Why exalt YHWH over all the other heavenly beings in the sky? Why would YHWH judge the other gods? It all says so in the text. None of that would make any logical sense if there weren’t other real gods. YHWH is the God of gods. He is NOT the only god. It would be blasphemous to say “YHWH you are such a bad arse, much more powerful and righteous than those imaginary beings which don’t even really exist”. YHWH isn’t jealous of imaginary things. He’s jealous of El Elyon, Asherah (Queen of Heaven), Ba’El, Chemosh, Milcom, and more. Israelites and other Canaanites were polytheists, but YHWH wanted to be the only on worshipped and venerated… that is evident throughout the Bible and is a clear theme that YHWH is judging and punishing the other gods and those that worship them.
Deny they were polytheists? Think all those figurines, idols, asherah poles, and inscriptions archaeologists found are fake? Read the Bible and tell me how many different gods the text says (wise) King Solomon was worshipping at the temple in Jerusalem.
If YHWH was so powerful though, why would he even be jealous? Ah but he wasn’t even that powerful. The god of Moab - Chemosh - whipped his arse in 2 Kings 3:27. He’s jealous because he’s on a relatively even field competing with other sons (and daughters) of El Elyon.
Exodus 6:3 clearly states Abraham did not know Him as YHWH. Genesis 14:22 says Abraham said (that the following words came out of Abraham’s mouth) “I have lifted my hand to the Lord (YHWH), God Most High (El Elyon)”. The editor tries his best to conflate the two gods, but makes a mistake. If Abraham didn’t know YHWH by his name, how could he have used the name YHWH when talking to the king of Sodom? Abraham was actually talking about El Elyon, the actual god most high and father of the gods, and receives a blessing from Melchizedek - priest of El Elyon.
This post was edited on 9/9/22 at 7:33 am
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