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Message
re: Apple Desktop $24,000+ LOL..seriously Apple?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 1:36 pm to ILikeLSUToo
Posted on 12/10/14 at 1:36 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
Speaking of workstations, what's the word on your next build(s)?
I've been meaning to catch you. I'm probably gonna do no more than 2 machines at a time just so we don't really have to worry about the budget. That being said, I won't be financially ready for another 2-3 months.
Like I had told you previously, I want to set myself up with an architecture that's gonna allow me to keep these things alive (via hardware upgrades) for as long as possible. You had mentioned waiting on a specific chipset to come out I believe. I wouldn't mind trying to throw something together to start getting an idea of just how badass I can get the machines and if holding off a few months might save me some money.
This post was edited on 12/10/14 at 1:39 pm
1
Posted on 12/10/14 at 1:38 pm to Korkstand
quote:
As opposed to the huge variety of designs you can get from Apple?
If it's variety you want, Apple is not the answer.
variety n. a thing that differs in some way from others of the same general class or sort
Considering that 99.99% of custom built PCs are ATX designs, and Apple does not offer an ATX design or anything resembling one at this point in time, yeah, I would say Apple offers variety compared to custom built PCs
Posted on 12/10/14 at 1:48 pm to efrad
That's quite an interpretation of 'variety'Posted on 12/10/14 at 1:54 pm to Korkstand
quote:
I got it from the Mac's built in dictionary. Think different ;)
Posted on 12/10/14 at 1:58 pm to efrad
quote:
Not really, I purposely left out anything implying that. It's just a choice.
But it appears to the basis of your entire argument in favor of a mac. If it's different but not technologically superior, then the only thing we have left is "it looks good." I showed a comparison of the $10,000 Mac pro build (CAD's original build with all the bullshite add-ons strippedout) vs. a superior and cheaper custom build that I went a little nuts on just to get it past the $9000 price point. In reality, I could build a better machine for more than $2,000 less.
Detailed part list
This comparison even includes $2000 worth of overpriced workstation cards that grossly outperform those in the Mac Pro. I could shave off $500 immediately by going with a Titan Z that would offer the same rendering accuracy and stability at double the performance of two D500s.
Apple spends a lot of money on marketing and design R&D to remain proprietary, and those costs are passed on to the consumer. Because of Apple's marketing approach in making most of their hardware proprietary, the hardware itself has a much smaller production run, raising costs for the sake of having something that fits the design they came up with for the sake of being different. With proprietary designs on the chassis, motherboard and daughterboard, video card, front panel, and PCIe expansion, the list of vendors/manufacturers contracted to make this stuff has to be short, and the hardware customization options narrower, forcing exclusivity and narrower selection and taking advantage of it with inflated upgrade prices -- because you only get one shot here. You won't be swapping out boards and CPUs as new chipsets and onboard features arise, or have the freedom to take advantage of new GPU architecture unless Apple says it's OK, and only if you buy the proprietary PCB design from them for an exhorbitant markup, and you'll only have the option of choosing workstation cards, and even their retail counterparts are scam-level pricing.
Here's the bottom line: There are no objective benefits to this proprietary design over ATX. Having a non-rectangle is not worth that kind of markup and severely limited upgradability, and god help you if you disagree with that. Your argument is whittled down to a subjective view on the way Apple designs and markets their products. This is really the polar opposite of the way someone who needs this caliber of a machine would/should be thinking.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 2:03 pm to junkfunky
quote:
You had mentioned waiting on a specific chipset to come out I believe.
Yeah, X99 on Socket 2011-3, which is the first platform offering DDR4 memory. It hit the market in September. Nothing else major being released except for some new video cards (we generally see new video cards from either AMD or Nvidia every quarter or two).
If I recall correctly, these are Revit and Autocad machines you're looking to build, and you don't really do any GPU-accelerated rendering? What kind of budget are you thinking, per machine?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 2:08 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
But it appears to the basis of your entire argument in favor of a mac.
What argument in favor of a Mac??? You're putting a ton of words in my mouth. Did I not just say
quote:?
It's just a choice. I'm not here to make you buy an Apple or even persuade you to do so. If you want a custom PC, build a custom PC.
You said that a custom PC would look as good as a Mac:
quote:
Maybe a car wouldn't look as good, but a PC will.
And I'm saying the Mac would look better and my reasoning is that Apple can make completely new designs that you can't do with ATX cases.
That's what I was responding to, and that's all I'm talking about. I didn't bring up price or performance. Of course I know you can get more bang for your buck with a custom build. I didn't even suggest that someone should buy a Mac. Just that it looks better.
This post was edited on 12/10/14 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 12/10/14 at 2:12 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
the car comparison
You are no different than a hot rod builder.
Insert any other luxury brand item in the place of car. It is a matter of choosing a brand name because you like the product, not what you can and cannot build on your own.
quote:
Maybe a car wouldn't look as good, but a PC will.
quote:
aesthetics are subjective.
Stepped on your own dick there.
Can agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I would rather the minimal space and curved approach than a larger footprint cubed tower.
quote:
sneak in the word performance
LOL at you saying that Apple is just terrible in this category. Other than custom build, what major brand (that you can get off the shelf) just blows them away? How many people can/want to build their own machine? People want finished products.
And why do so many professionals choose Mac for Video/Music production?
Is it just to be one of the cool kids?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 2:15 pm to efrad
Then why are you so adamantly arguing about a trashcan design? It's subjective as hell and has absolutely no business being a part of the discussion. You seriously think a rectangular motherboard is that big of a limitation, or that any sane professional gives a shite?
I fully regret saying a PC would look as good, because that's just my opinion. The real point is even if I thought the Mac Pro was the most beautiful thing in the world, it would still be a stupid buy.
I fully regret saying a PC would look as good, because that's just my opinion. The real point is even if I thought the Mac Pro was the most beautiful thing in the world, it would still be a stupid buy.
This post was edited on 12/10/14 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 12/10/14 at 2:17 pm to SERVON225LLT
quote:
SERVON225LLT
You're making less sense than efrad. At least I'm getting around to understanding what he's trying to say.
quote:
LOL at you saying that Apple is just terrible in this category.
I said that? Where?
Holy shite you're dumb.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 2:31 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
If I recall correctly, these are Revit and Autocad machines you're looking to build, and you don't really do any GPU-accelerated rendering?
Exactly
quote:
What kind of budget are you thinking, per machine?
$2500 per would be ideal.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 4:31 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
But it appears to the basis of your entire argument in favor of a mac. If it's different but not technologically superior, then the only thing we have left is "it looks good." I showed a comparison of the $10,000 Mac pro build (CAD's original build with all the bullshite add-ons strippedout) vs. a superior and cheaper custom build that I went a little nuts on just to get it past the $9000 price point. In reality, I could build a better machine for more than $2,000 less.
How much does that employee cost a year in salary/benefits to build out those machines and keep em running? Sure you could contract it out, but that is still more money. Obviously there are a lot of factors beyond just that in play, volume of computers and such. Dell vs Apple is always a better comparison than bringing in customs.
quote:
Apple spends a lot of money on marketing and design R&D to remain proprietary, and those costs are passed on to the consumer. Because of Apple's marketing approach in making most of their hardware proprietary, the hardware itself has a much smaller production run, raising costs for the sake of having something that fits the design they came up with for the sake of being different.
Why is this such a terrible thing? Companies can be different from each other and offer products to different markets. Obviously Apple has found a market in this business. The customers don't feel exploited or scammed as they have a very high customer satisfaction rating.
The Apple pissing match always ends up in the same pointless place. If you don't like them, don't buy them. What is the point of hating on a successful business? I am sure any of you would exploit the frick out of a market if you had the opportunity.
This post was edited on 12/10/14 at 4:33 pm
Posted on 12/10/14 at 5:16 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
How much does that employee cost a year in salary/benefits to build out those machines and keep em running? Sure you could contract it out, but that is still more money. Obviously there are a lot of factors beyond just that in play, volume of computers and such. Dell vs Apple is always a better comparison than bringing in customs.
Yeah, I saw your post earlier about whether a company would want custom-built, and I agree that they would not because they aren't employing system builders and would much rather have the convenience of support from someone like Dell -- especially larger businesses. No question about it. I was only referring to individuals buying workstations for their own use -- which is what we are, individuals talking about buying high-end computers, whether it's freelance or contracted work or for a sole proprietorship. For someone in that position, I do think it's worth their time to learn to custom build a highly targeted, easily upgradable workstation. I also said in my very first post in this thread that I applied the overpriced/overly generic workstations to all brands, not just Apple. But it's the Apple folks who got defensive. Their rage is misdirected and arguments misguided.
quote:
Why is this such a terrible thing? Companies can be different from each other and offer products to different markets. Obviously Apple has found a market in this business. The customers don't feel exploited or scammed as they have a very high customer satisfaction rating.
This I agree with. Apple is doing something right. They don't sell junk, and they are extremely smart at designing marketable solutions to consumers. It doesn't change the fact that their design is not technologically superior. It is aesthetically pleasing to the target market, but it undeniably hinders upgradability and increases costs. If you are OK with that because you favor the aesthetics, the OS X experience, and perhaps the 100% Apple ecosystem, that is your decision and the decision of many, many others. Believe me, I am not in the business of bringing Apple users away from Apple, just as I don't roast snow in a furnace. But don't pull other non-existent discriminators out of your arse and expect me to nod and smile every time (Not directed at you, but just in general). In most of my posts, I consider not just the thread participants, but others who lurk and read and learn. That is how misinformation spreads like a virus, albeit a slow one in a localized forum like this.
quote:
What is the point of hating on a successful business?
Given how long and how prolifically I've been posting in the tech and gaming boards, it is really annoying to see that you may think this is my intent. I stick to the facts as much as humanly possible here. If someone says something incorrect that I know to be incorrect, I will correct it, whether it's for or against Apple or any other company, product, or industry as a whole. I would hope others would do the same. That is the geek way. I do not make assertions on things I know nothing about, so it's frustrating when others do and spread misinformation. Such is life.
This post was edited on 12/10/14 at 5:21 pm
Posted on 12/10/14 at 5:20 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:constantly run statistical software on stock exchanges
I want it now. I just cannot think of anything I do that could benefit from, let alone need, all those cores and all that RAM
Posted on 12/10/14 at 8:08 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
Given how long and how prolifically I've been posting in the tech and gaming boards, it is really annoying to see that you may think this is my intent. I stick to the facts as much as humanly possible here. If someone says something incorrect that I know to be incorrect, I will correct it, whether it's for or against Apple or any other company, product, or industry as a whole. I would hope others would do the same. That is the geek way. I do not make assertions on things I know nothing about, so it's frustrating when others do and spread misinformation. Such is life.
That last statement wasn't really directed at you, just more of this thread and really topic in general.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:00 pm to junkfunky
quote:
$2500 per would be ideal.
Okay, now that I'm home (I don't like doing PCPartPicker configs on mobile), here's what I got:
PCPartPicker part list: LINK
Price breakdown by merchant: LINK
CPU: Intel Core i7-5820K 3.3GHz 6-Core Processor ($369.99 @ NCIX US)
CPU Cooler: Swiftech H240-X 90.0 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler ($169.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: MSI X99S MPOWER ATX LGA2011-3 Motherboard ($279.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-2666 Memory ($502.98 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 1TB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($399.98 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($101.46 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB ACX 2.0 Video Card ($334.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Case: Corsair 550D ATX Mid Tower Case ($124.98 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: XFX XTR 850W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($109.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $2394.34
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-10 21:53 EST-0500
Lots of SSD space for current projects, and HDD space for past projects. How large are you Revit project files typically? A rule of thumb for RAM seems to be 20 times the size of the Revit project file.
As I'd mentioned in your thread from a while back, Revit is CPU-heavy, but of course I'm including a powerful and efficient GPU (but not overboard) for the instances you may need some visual eyecandy (realistic textures, shadows, anti-aliasing, etc.).
Many of Revit's main tasks are apparently reliant on single-core performance. Any of the three i7s for the X99 platform offer an ideal combo of excellent single-threaded performance and the extra cores when you need them (According to what I've read, multi-threaded tasks include printing, joining walls, loading files and elements, using a point-cloud overlay, opening and changing views, rendering, and ray tracing).
I've set this configuration up for overclocking. Everything I've read suggests Revit thrives on overclocked Intel CPUs (otherwise, we could've gone with a Xeon). The cooler and the motherboard I've included can get you well beyond 4.0 Ghz. 4.4-4.5GHz seems about average for these chips for 24/7 stability. I think you live close by if I recall correctly, so if you need overclocking help, I'd consider it a privilege (I don't get to play with high-end hardware often enough).
Acquiring the cooler may be problematic because it can go out of stock often. If so, you can go with a corsair H100i or H110, and we can swap the fans with a couple of good static-pressure low-RPM quiet fans to keep noise down.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:08 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
Then why are you so adamantly arguing about a trashcan design?
I'm not arguing about just a trashcan design. Apple has had a long tradition of iconic computer designs, starting with the original '84 Macintosh. Later when Apple was in deep trouble, the simple iconic design of the late-90s CRT iMac played a huge role in making the company profitable and viable again. And in the really early 00s when very few people gave a shite about Apple or though they were cool and hip, they released an iPod with a subpar feature set compared to the competition, but it was the sleek and simple design that helped thrust the company back into the forefront of the consumer electronics market.
Good design and marketing the hell out of that good design is what makes Apple what they are, and what they are is one of the top most valuable companies in the world, so clearly someone out there is appreciating it.
quote:
The real point is even if I thought the Mac Pro was the most beautiful thing in the world, it would still be a stupid buy.
Okay, but I'm not debating that. I have said multiple times that it might not be the best purchase. I have said multiple times I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to buy one in this thread. Why do you keep bringing this up?
quote:
Given how long and how prolifically I've been posting in the tech and gaming boards, it is really annoying to see that you may think this is my intent. I stick to the facts as much as humanly possible here. If someone says something incorrect that I know to be incorrect, I will correct it, whether it's for or against Apple or any other company, product, or industry as a whole. I would hope others would do the same. That is the geek way. I do not make assertions on things I know nothing about, so it's frustrating when others do and spread misinformation. Such is life.
I appreciate this post because this is my same line of thinking. But I don't see how someone who clearly has a good thinking head on their shoulders can't take a step back and appreciate design for what it is, even if they would never purchase it themselves. I've had multiple jobs in which I built and repaired computers, I have done so many side-job builds for friends and acquaintances, and I keep up with my friends who do their own custom builds. I definitely understand the merits of building PCs and I've always advocated it.
But at the same time, product design can be an art in and of itself. Take a look at some of the old Braun designs by Dieter Rams, who was an inspiration for Jony Ive.
That stuff is fricking beautiful. It belongs in an art museum, IMO.
The point I'm trying to make here is that an amateur custom PC build with off-the-shelf parts is never going to match the the possibilities of what can be done when someone is designing something from the ground up. Whether that is significant enough to matter to me, you, or anyone else is simply a choice that each individual can make on their own.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:16 pm to efrad
quote:
lol such butthurt in this thread from people who can't afford an Apple
I can afford an Apple. I spend the same amount of money and build a much better machine for my needs.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:18 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
How large are you Revit project files typically? A rule of thumb for RAM seems to be 20 times the size of the Revit project file.
We're consultants so our issue is with architectural (and other disciplines) models that we are linking into our model (which usually stays below 100MB for large projects) and the biggest slow down has been with regenerating the views. With the big jobs we can get up to 5 or 6 different models that can approach a combined 600-700MB. About 5 years ago a 100MB architectural model was rare so I'm sure we'll be hitting the 1GB and beyond mark fairly soon.
Still, 20 is less than 32, so it sounds like I should be good.
quote:
I've set this configuration up for overclocking. Everything I've read suggests Revit thrives on overclocked Intel CPUs (otherwise, we could've gone with a Xeon). The cooler and the motherboard I've included can get you well beyond 4.0 Ghz. 4.4-4.5GHz seems about average for these chips for 24/7 stability. I think you live close by if I recall correctly, so if you need overclocking help, I'd consider it a privilege (I don't get to play with high-end hardware often enough).
Sounds great, I really appreciate it.
By the way, I've been thinking about your boy. How's he been doing?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:39 pm to SG_Geaux
quote:
I can afford an Apple. I spend the same amount of money and build a much better machine for my needs.
I own several Apple products. I have never been impressed with their laptops for value, performance, or interface. It would be unfair to say that I find nothing special about their desktops, because the only Mac Pro I ever got my hands on was a g5 in 2010 or so (long outdated, but still functional).
Even when using current generations, the iMac just falls short in terms of value (performance per dollar) with nothing in its interface or unique offerings to make the OS or customer service worth the difference in price.
The Mac Mini is an interesting beast. The hardware is nothing to write home about by any stretch, but it's close to cheap enough to consider in the small form factor because it's simply packs more power into that form factor than just about all non-home-built machines at competitive pricing.
When it comes to the operating system, I'm most familiar with Snow Leopard. I find 7 and 8 to be vastly superior, though. Unless things have changed, I find Finder to be much "clunkier" than explorer. I also feel that control panel in windows has better access to frequently used, yet borderline advanced settings than the OSX offering, though with each iteration of Windows, they do seemingly place an extra layer on those "deeper" settings. All in all, when comparing 7 and Snow Leopard on similarly spec'd and priced machines, I preferred 7. I used Snow Leopard extensively for a while. It just never offered too much and had an even more intrusive update system than Windows, which I thought was odd. I still use it, but mainly because I have an older audio interface that I still do some recording on.
I've used newer products with similar feelings. I just have the most experience with Snow Leopard specifically.
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