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Started By
Message
re: Interesting article on NCAA Refs
Posted on 12/27/16 at 2:54 am to la_birdman
Posted on 12/27/16 at 2:54 am to la_birdman
quote:
Moreover, if they should miss a call, those reviewing the plays are expected to call it fairly, since many are former officials.
The play was not reviewed. My response you quoted was directly related to the Ole Miss call.
quote:
But after reviews when it's blatantly obvious that the call is incorrect and upheld, that's wrong.
I agree. Wrong (or bad) calls are made, even after replays, unfortunately. I am not disputing this. I am disputing that there is no compiled data showing that Bama is disproportionately benefiting from penalties, and the data available to us does not reflect what others are saying.
Could the refs be better? Sure. Has the SEC had years like 2009 where the officiating was so bad across the board it raised a bunch of eyebrows? Yes. Does this prove that refs are actively cheating to help bama win? No.
2
Posted on 12/27/16 at 2:56 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Has the SEC had years like 2009 where the officiating was so bad across the board it raised a bunch of eyebrows? Yes.
quote:
Does this prove that refs are actively cheating to help bama win? No.
It may not prove it but as you just stated, it makes one raise eyebrows and consider that there may be something afoot. That's a fair enough statement.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 3:00 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Moreover, if they should miss a call, those reviewing the plays are expected to call it fairly, since many are former officials.
You're missing the big picture. It's not about that one call. Should the officials on the field miss a call, which will inevitably happen, those that are reviewing the calls in the booth are expected to call it fairly. Many are former officials. We all know Ritter is one.
That's my point. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you personally.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 3:01 am to la_birdman
quote:
It may not prove it but as you just stated, it makes one raise eyebrows and consider that there may be something afoot. That's a fair enough statement.
I agree which is why i agreed with the conclusiom of the original article i linked in my first post. I think the refs should report to an independent body and not their conference's HQ. It looks really bad. I think a separate body would help quiet some of the questions that get raised due to how the current system is operated throughout the NCAA.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 3:05 am to la_birdman
quote:
That's my point. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you personally.
I know. Nor am I to you. My point was that if refs screw up replay calls that doesn't mean they are cheating to help the team it benefits, and those missed replay calls don't only benefit Bama.
Eta: i am up way too late to discuss this further, but would be glad to pick up the discussion tomorrow. Have a good evening.
This post was edited on 12/27/16 at 3:07 am
Posted on 12/27/16 at 3:22 am to Tiger Tracker
The question isn't if the spot was correct. The question is was the ref cheating.
The quote you provide does not give an explanation of why he looked back to see if is current spot was a first down or not for Alabama.
Are you saying an "incorrect mechanic" is an explanation of why the ref did what he did? An incorrect mechanic is WHAT he did... not why he did it.
So no, the article offers no explanation for why the ref did what he did.
The quote you provide does not give an explanation of why he looked back to see if is current spot was a first down or not for Alabama.
Are you saying an "incorrect mechanic" is an explanation of why the ref did what he did? An incorrect mechanic is WHAT he did... not why he did it.
So no, the article offers no explanation for why the ref did what he did.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 7:50 am to omegaman66
quote:
So no, the article offers no explanation for why the ref did what he did.
And, as other posters have pointed out, nor does the article cover "missed" calls or non calls. It is simply pointing out calls made, which can easily average out over time.
The Etling helmet-to-helmet non call from this year won't make the article. The situation where the Refs made up a penalty to wipe out THREE Bama penalties won't make the article because in the box score those calls offset, and don't count as a penalty. The non calls on the TD aren't there.
So because of that, the OP now moves the goal posts and is asking fans to go through all the games and point this out. LOL
Sorry. Not everyone is a true believer like the OP.
As for it being a conspiracy, I say "no". The reason I say "no" is because I don't view it as a conspiracy as much as I view it as just part of the game. I've seen it happen so much since watching the SEC that I've become accustomed to it. If the game is close between Bama, Auburn, Florida and whoever they are playing, there will be some shenanigans that will benefit them. shite, we watched the SEC arrange an entire season (2009) so UF and Bama could play in the SECCG. Wasn't just LSU that year that had to take two losses for the conference. Arky, MSU, among others, lost some really "crazy" games that year. Many of the shenanigans wouldn't make the articles due to not being "penalties called".
Again, know what you are watching and go from there. It isn't hard.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:03 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:What kind of dumbass statement is that?
Some of the study’s conclusions defy more-cynical views. For instance, teams favored by Vegas tended to get significantly more discretionary calls against them than underdogs
Bets are placed on both sides of a line. The question being: "Does Bama/mob money align with SEC calls?"
The answer has nothing whatsoever to do with underdogs or W/L. It has to do with who is betting and what is the betting line/point spread.
For any jackass to proclaim SEC Officials to be the "least biased", he must first accept SEC Officials simply be so incoherently incompetent that their random incapacity could account for a series of one-sided awful calls in a given game.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:15 am to omegaman66
quote:
The question isn't if the spot was correct. The question is was the ref cheating.
How can the ref be cheating if he spotted the ball in the proper spot? Wouldn't it be cheating if the ball was moved to an advantageous spot?
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:19 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
I was discussing whether or not the refs legitimately have it out for LSU (or are actively cheating for Bama). I said i didnt believe this. Apparently you don't either.
I'd guess it would depend on how we'd define actively here. I think given the incestuous nature of the SEC offices and the way they are interwoven with Alabama locals who, let's be honest, are largely fans of the local programs there is an unspoken understanding that BAMA simply commits less fouls, and therefore many of the things which they do during the games get over looked, whereas a program like LSU is seen differently and does not get the benefit of the doubt. I hold that position largely thanks to the research I did having done that chart a few years ago. Short of outright cheating, there is simply no reason other than an inherent bias that allows the officials think assume the team in Crimson simply plays cleaner to account for why, regardless of the coach, BAMA commits far less penalties per year than LSU. And given we have literally had the same exact guy on the sidelines at some point, it's beyond laughable.
I won;t rule out something much more sinister...but before I'm going down that road I'll need actual evidence to prove it, not just a gut feeling. I will say I would not be heart broken to see the government step in and start yanking files out of cabinets and subpoenaing documents to investigate any possible shenanigans in Birmingham though. Given the absurd amount of money involved, it seems odd that we all seem so content in looking the other way and being shamed into feeling like a crybaby for expecting things in the conference to be above board and above reproach.
quote:
Appreciate the actual discussion you presented.
No sweat. While I love arguing, if it can't be an honest discussion where each party is actually open to having their mind's changes what the point?
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:30 am to EZE Tiger Fan
quote:
So because of that, the OP now moves the goal posts and is asking fans to go through all the games and point this out. LOL
If you find it unreasonable to look at all the data before coming to a conclusion then that's your choice. I was simply saying if you want to PROVE that there's Bama bias or favoritism then you would need such data to do so. You can believe whatever you like. I have not changed my original position or moved any goal posts.
quote:
Again, know what you are watching and go from there. It isn't hard.
Again, just because you watch a small subset of games doesn't make all games work out the same way. That's why i said there needs to be more data. Go back through the thread and tell me how many penalties people point out. I would estimate about 6 or 7 over a 6 or 7 year period. So that's lsu vs bama one bad call against lsu per year. How many bad calls were made that year overall? How many calls were made in favor of Bama? We don't know those numbers. So while it may seem obvious because you've seen the calls it doesn't mean that they all go for Bama.
quote:
Sorry. Not everyone is a true believer like the OP.
You don't have to be. Just don't sit here and tell me you know for a fact that Bama is consciously favorited or the refs actively cheat for them when you actually have no conclusive evidence of this. 6 or 7 bad calls on their own don't count as conclusive data. Again, they need to be compared to the data as whole. Which is why it would be on the person making the claim that they do cheat to provide me with some study of information showing this.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:32 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
ow can the ref be cheating if he spotted the ball in the proper spot? Wouldn't it be cheating if the ball was moved to an advantageous spot?
Not necessarily. Assuming the final spot was correct, and it's been a while since I went back and looked at the raw video of that play so I can't say and I'm not inclined to just take the SEC office's word for it...then the official could simply have assumed an incorrect spot in his own mind (poor spot of the ball initially) and when he realized the spot he had made did not move the ball far enough for a first down he inched it forward...which is what we saw as he looked back at the sticks.
I'm not advocating that position...just pointing out that he could have accidentally marked it right in the process of allowing his bias to inch the ball forward in favor of BAMA after having initially gotten the spot wrong because he missed it.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:40 am to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Just this year the holds against ole miss when fournette scored.
First I have heard of this, but I will listen and look at any video of these holds you speak of?
quote:
No i can't, not anymore than anyone on this board can prove it right.
Actually we can with video evidence and a consistent pattern of said actions against teams on the same level or close to the same level as Alabama. Also Graduates of this school being in positions to make influences to on the field action.
quote:
The conclusion (from what i understood) is that the refs should be an independent group not having to answer to their conferences. Even if there is not an incestual type relationship going on between the refs and the conference leaders, it just looks really bad and raises questions. It makes more sense to have them as an independent body, but the conferences (not just sec) aren't wanting this to happen.
Why do you supposed that the SEC office would be against such a move?
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:43 am to GeauxTigerTM
I think there's definitely some bias conscious or not. Like the article demonstrated it seems that refs tend to favor the perceived "better team" or "more disciplined" when calling fouls. That's across the board in the NCAA and not exclusively a Bama/SEC thing. The reason why this happens could be debated all day, but without proof of anything i won't just make the claim there is.
I think the researcher has the right idea by breaking up these incestuous relationships between refs and their conferences. Even if nothing is going on it just looks really bad, and when calls appear to only favor one team ideas like the ones presented by others on this thread run rampant.
Same here. Which is why i was hoping we had data on the issue since it seems such a hot topic. I think people take it as me being difficult or moving goal posts. I just don't make these kinds of accusations unless it was proven to me. That's all. If people choose to believe it then that's fine. It's just not a known statement of fact, is all.
My mind can be changed i would just need to see more evidence presented. There are certainly bad calls out there that favor Bama (and others). I just can't take such a small sample size relative to the amount of penalties called over the years and say it's proof. Especially, if it's a biased football fan of a rival team coming to that "conclusion" based solely upon what they watched. It's a start, but it's definitely not proof of anything more sinister on its own.
I think the researcher has the right idea by breaking up these incestuous relationships between refs and their conferences. Even if nothing is going on it just looks really bad, and when calls appear to only favor one team ideas like the ones presented by others on this thread run rampant.
quote:
I won;t rule out something much more sinister...but before I'm going down that road I'll need actual evidence to prove it, not just a gut feeling.
Same here. Which is why i was hoping we had data on the issue since it seems such a hot topic. I think people take it as me being difficult or moving goal posts. I just don't make these kinds of accusations unless it was proven to me. That's all. If people choose to believe it then that's fine. It's just not a known statement of fact, is all.
quote:
No sweat. While I love arguing, if it can't be an honest discussion where each party is actually open to having their mind's changes what the point?
My mind can be changed i would just need to see more evidence presented. There are certainly bad calls out there that favor Bama (and others). I just can't take such a small sample size relative to the amount of penalties called over the years and say it's proof. Especially, if it's a biased football fan of a rival team coming to that "conclusion" based solely upon what they watched. It's a start, but it's definitely not proof of anything more sinister on its own.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 11:51 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
I'm not advocating that position...just pointing out that he could have accidentally marked it right in the process of allowing his bias to inch the ball forward in favor of BAMA after having initially gotten the spot wrong because he missed it.
I see your point. I actually went back and watched it last night on YouTube. It's a close call on the spot, the play was not reviewed, and it appears he is trying to confer with the other side judge to get the spot correct.
It appears that way to me. Again, i get your point, but if the spot is accurate, i think that's what's most important here. I guess you could cheat and still make the right call, but it seems hard to say it unfairly favored one team or another if it is indeed the right call.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 12:07 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
If you find it unreasonable to look at all the data before coming to a conclusion then that's your choice.
Who said I didn't look at the data? I did. I replied to it.
quote:
I was simply saying if you want to PROVE that there's Bama bias or favoritism then you would need such data to do so.
I have the data. It is called eyes, ears, a brain, and watching nearly 40 years of college football. If you read my post history, I'm a CFB fan in general. LSU first, then everything else. If LSU's product/game is boring, I watch other games. I love the sport. I just know what I'm watching. Like right now, watching a shitty bowl with UNT vs Army. LOL.
quote:
Again, just because you watch a small subset of games doesn't make all games work out the same way.
And again, I'm not basing this opinion on a small subset of games at all. I am a big numbers guy as well. My degrees dictate that, as well as my Asperger's.
quote:
That's why i said there needs to be more data. Go back through the thread and tell me how many penalties people point out. I would estimate about 6 or 7 over a 6 or 7 year period. So that's lsu vs bama one bad call against lsu per year.
See, this tells me you aren't reading carefully. Just from this year's game alone several posters have pointed out 4-5. I pointed out three very blatant ones earlier and you didn't touch them. It is more like 6-7 every time we play them. And like I said earlier, it isn't just when LSU plays them either. Pay attention.
quote:
We don't know those numbers. So while it may seem obvious because you've seen the calls it doesn't mean that they all go for Bama.
No. We will never know the numbers because nobody is going to go back and watch every game to determine all the non calls or missed calls. Could you imagine watching, say, Auburn 2006 again? There were well over a dozen in that game. Easily.
quote:
You don't have to be. Just don't sit here and tell me you know for a fact that Bama is consciously favorited or the refs actively cheat for them when you actually have no conclusive evidence of this.
Again, I know what I'm watching. When I sit down and view a game now, the players are nothing more than entertainers to me while the refs, coaches and broadcasters (who I mute) are just actors in the play. When you are in that mindset, it is easier to view the whole product differently. I know what I see. I know what I see on replay. I know when our QB is hit helmet to helmet and our guy doesn't get the benefit of a replay, you know, for player safety then something egregious like that tells me what the outcome will most likely be.
We simply agree to disagree, and that's fine. I just don't like it when someone is telling me what I was seeing wasn't real.
Besides, who are we going to complain to in order to fix this? Oh yeah, that guy graduated from Bama. LOL
But I'm sure there's nothing to see there either. The fox is overseeing the hen house.
This post was edited on 12/27/16 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 12/27/16 at 12:11 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
For any jackass to proclaim SEC Officials to be the "least biased", he must first accept SEC Officials simply be so incoherently incompetent that their random incapacity could account for a series of one-sided awful calls in a given game.
Not to mention the fact that I am seeing the same refs on my TV for many, many years. So, after years of officiating, these guys aren't getting any better? LOL
Right.
They are doing their job. That's what them sticking around tells me. And every time they do something else that's egregious and I see them again in another game the following week, that just tells me they were applauded for doing their job again.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 12:11 pm to Ponchy Tiger
quote:
First I have heard of this, but I will listen and look at any video of these holds you speak of?
I don't have the gif. It was played several times on a lsu bama thread back in nov. When this all started up.
quote:
Actually we can with video evidence and a consistent pattern of said actions against teams on the same level or close to the same level as Alabama. Also Graduates of this school being in positions to make influences to on the field action.
Man...I am just done talking to you at this point. I have stated several times we would need to have this data actually compared to all game changing calls to come to any real proven/factual conclusion. Until then you are just speculating. You have your opinion. I respect that, but it's only your opinion. It has not been proven to be accurate. I don't think you understand what i mean when i say research has to be done on the matter. One fanbase watching some games doesn't count as research. Could you be correct? Possibly, but you don't know for sure. You just have a very strong opiniom on it.
As an example, when the world was believed to be flat, why did they believe that? Because of what they saw and the knowledge they currently had at the time. Someone said set out to prove that theory wrong and did. So while most believed it, until someone actually researched it no one really knew for sure. They were basing those opinions on what their eyes had seen.
quote:
Why do you supposed that the SEC office would be against such a move?
Why are the other conferences opposed to it? The author of the study asserted that it was possible they wanted the "best teams" from the conference in the playoffs for money, and refs, being associated with the conferences, could feel internal pressure or develop bias when officiating, due to this factor.
I'm not saying there is no bias at all. I am saying you can't prove that it's only a bama bias or Auburn bias without further evidence. You're talking conspiracy theories vs proven factual information
Posted on 12/27/16 at 12:13 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Like the article demonstrated it seems that refs tend to favor the perceived "better team" or "more disciplined" when calling fouls.
But this isn't really the case when Alabama is involved. Someone earlier in this thread had the data as far back as he could find. Ppl tend to believe that Saban's teams are more disciplined therefore less penalized but that isn't the case. going back to 2003 I think when Shula was coaching Bama and Saban was at LSU and until now that Saban is at Bama. Every single year LSU was more penalized than Bama.
Thats the thing, it only happens in the critical moments when they can have the biggest impact on the game so you can't put any statistical data on it.
Posted on 12/27/16 at 12:17 pm to Tiger Tracker
quote:
Why are the other conferences opposed to it?
Why do you answer a question with a question? I suspect why this is but I will keep it to myself for the moment.
I will bite though, yes I think it is influenced by the conference office and media / TV for money purposes.
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