- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Winter Olympics
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Jarrett Lee
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:45 pm to Mike Linebacker
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:45 pm to Mike Linebacker
quote:
Again, I'm not trying to say Lee is better (or worse). I'm just saying that statistics are like a string bikini. What they reveal is interesting. But what they cover up can be essential.
Yep. I listed some regulation stats on regular season SEC games a while back ago, counting sacks as pass plays rather than run plays, and here they are again:
LSU's Offense in SEC Games, 2000-09
(Year, YPRush, YPPass, % Rushing Plays, YPP)
2000, 3.90, 6.79, 50.19, 5.34
2001, 4.36, 8.36, 47.36, 6.46
2002, 4.74, 6.05, 64.94, 5.20
2003, 4.55, 6.66, 56.83, 5.46
2004, 5.94, 5.99, 62.09, 5.96
2005, 4.21, 6.63, 54.55, 5.31
2006, 4.77, 7.52, 50.29, 6.14
2007, 5.29, 5.32, 54.96, 5.30
2008, 4.50, 6.21, 52.83, 5.31
2009, 4.20, 5.28, 48.99, 4.75
Here's ranking the yards per pass play by season:
1. 8.36 (2001)
2. 7.52 (2006)
3. 6.79 (2000)
4. 6.66 (2003)
5. 6.63 (2005)
6. 6.21 (2008)
7. 6.05 (2002)
8. 5.99 (2004)
9. 5.32 (2007)
10. 5.28 (2009)
Here's ranking the yards per rushing play by season:
1. 5.94 (2004)
2. 5.29 (2007)
3. 4.77 (2006)
4. 4.74 (2002)
5. 4.55 (2003)
6. 4.50 (2008)
7. 4.36 (2001)
8. 4.21 (2005)
9. 4.20 (2009)
10. 3.90 (2000)
Here's ranking the yards per play by season:
1. 6.46 (2001)
2. 6.14 (2006)
3. 5.96 (2004)
4. 5.46 (2003)
5. 5.34 (2000)
6. 5.31 (2005)
7. 5.31 (2008)
8. 5.30 (2007)
9. 5.20 (2002)
10. 4.75 (2009)
With Flynn, you didn't get a whole lot of passing yards, but just enough of a deep threat to make the defenses worry. His strong suit was setting up the run with his quickness on misdirection plays and stuff (which suffered greatly in midseason against SCAR, Tulane, UF, UK, etc., with his ankle injury), while dumping a short pass off on some bootlegs and scrambles to keep defenses honest.
With Jefferson, you have a low yards per pass play stat like with Flynn, but even worse, you have a situation where the offense is specifically geared to be antithetical to a strong running game, and where nobody respects the deep threat either (in part because the running game is never allowed to develop, which allows defenses to get an even quicker pass rush).
Bottom line is this: Crowton has sucked balls the last 2 seasons.
2
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:47 pm to Mike Linebacker
quote:
Well of course. But do you not realize that some of the 7 interceptions JJ threw last season were as bad as some of those pick sixes but Jefferson was fotunate to have the defender fall down or get tackled.
A pick six in the flat is entirely on the QB. A pick thrown 25 yards down the middle of the field is on the QB, but if it's returned for a TD, that's not on him (well maybe 1/11th on him).
then consider it misfortune on Lee's part but dont blame it on the other offensive players.. they werent given scholoships to make tackles
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:50 pm to genuineLSUtiger
I think it's beyond ignorant that people actually believe Lee isn't competing for the starting role. I forgot that many of you watched a top offense last year while some of us had to settle for option B and a 119th ranked offense.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:51 pm to Doc Fenton
quote:Thats a bingo
Bottom line is this: Crowton has sucked balls the last 2 seasons.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:51 pm to King Mello
quote:
they werent given scholoships to make tackles
So none of these guys played on special teams?
Even when an onside kick was coming?
And LSU never coaches their players that fumbles or interceptions are part of the game?
Really?
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:52 pm to Doc Fenton
quote:
counting sacks as pass plays rather than run plays
Interesting. Is it usually the other way? Because the NCAA site has our yards-per-carry for 2009 at 3.67. I guess the 34 sacks could be so bad that they weighed down the team average by 0.5 yards per carry but that seemed like a big delta.
NCAA Stats--Scroll Down to #90
This post was edited on 7/27/10 at 3:53 pm
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:55 pm to King Mello
quote:
then consider it misfortune on Lee's part but dont blame it on the other offensive players.. they werent given scholoships to make tackles
OK. That's all I think anyone ever said. "Pick Six" is the non-sequitur for anti-Lee guys and "112th ranked offense" is the meme for the anti-Jefferson crowd. I think the pro-Lee guys look at the pick six argument as hollow because a lot of those were simple misfortune. There was nothing about the interception itself that made it more likely to be returned for a TD than any other (except for the Auburn one). It just...happened.
Is that fair?
Posted on 7/27/10 at 3:56 pm to RobbBobb
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:01 pm to Mike Linebacker
For the 8 SEC games, I have LSU at 243 rushes for 1021 yards, which leads to 4.20 yards per carry (against some pretty stout run defenses in Florida, Alabama, & Ole Miss).
I also have 28 sacks for a loss of 193 yards. If you included those, you would get 271 rushes for 828 yards, which leads to 3.06 yards per carry.
Big difference.
By way of comparison, the average over the last 10 years was for LSU to take 15 sacks for 117 yards in regulation for regular season SEC games.
I also have 28 sacks for a loss of 193 yards. If you included those, you would get 271 rushes for 828 yards, which leads to 3.06 yards per carry.
Big difference.
By way of comparison, the average over the last 10 years was for LSU to take 15 sacks for 117 yards in regulation for regular season SEC games.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:01 pm to BayAreaTigerFan
quote:
BayAreaTigerFan
If you are going to intersperse with pictures of chicks, at least make them pics of hot ones!
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:01 pm to TIsuGGER
quote:
And LSU never coaches their players that fumbles or interceptions are part of the game?
Really?
If our WRs and RBs have to start running tackling drills like they're defensive backs we are in some serious trouble
This post was edited on 7/27/10 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:01 pm to TIsuGGER
quote:
Those 7 pick sixes were returned for a total of 301 yards. Let that sink in. A lot of people quit on those plays for that to happen.
Not necessarily. And it's actually 287 return yards.
So let's be fair to all parties involved and list them.
Interception #1:
Gabe McKenzie, Auburn. The interception was on a swing pass at mid-field. No one touched McKenzie in the 24 yards on the way to the endzone. Can't blame the rest of the offense on that one.
Interception #2:
Brandon Spike, Florida. The interception was thrown underneath on what looks to be a slant route. McKenize picked and scampered 52 yards untouched to the endzone. Can't blame the rest of the offense on that one.
Interception #3:
Daryl Gamble, Georgia. Much like Spikes, Gamble intercepted the ball underneath the coverage and ran 40 yards untouched for a TD. Can't blame the rest of the offense on that one.
Interception #4:
Daryl Gamble, Georgia. Pretty poorly under-thrown ball. Gamble cuts underneath the route and scampers untouched for 53 yards and a score. Can't blame the rest of the offense on that one.
Interception #5:
Travis Burks, Tulane. This is a deeper ball, but it's thrown underneath all the routes (another magnificent play call by Mr. Wizard running everyone deep with no drop off route.) Again, the defender runs 43 yards untouched into the endzone. You can't blame that on the rest of the offense, but you can toss some blame on Crowton's incredible inept play calling.)
Interception #6:
Rashad Johnson, Alabama. Much like the Tulane interception, this ball was thrown about 15 yards in the middle of the field. Most the receivers were past the point of interception. However, Johnson had to make a few people miss and Lafell chased him down inside the five right before Johnson scored. Total yardage was 53. First LSU contact came after about 40 yards. We'll say some of that is on the offense.
Interception #7
Terrance Moore, Troy. 22 yard return for touchdown. I can't find video of it anywhere on the internet and I don't really remember what happened. So will give Lee the benefit of the doubt and say the offense could/should have tackled him.
So of the seven interceptions returned for touchdowns, five them occurred in such a manner that no offensive player could have even laid a hand on the defender. Plus, these five account for 212 of the 287 return yards.
On these interceptions, no one even touched the defensive player. You really can't blame the rest of the offense for that.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:02 pm to Doc Fenton
quote:
Doc Fenton
Thanks for the explanation
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:02 pm to TIsuGGER
quote:
So none of these guys played on special teams?
Even when an onside kick was coming?
And LSU never coaches their players that fumbles or interceptions are part of the game?
Really?
onside kicks dont require very much tackling and when Lee was QB we're talking about guys like D Byrd, Lafell, and probably Tolliver at WR.. Dixon at TE.. and probably Keiland or Scott at RB.. out of that entire group (not including o-linemen for obvious reasons) i honestly wouldnt rely on any of them outside of maybe Lafell or Scott to tackle a prep defender let alone in a actual collegiate athlete.. you can coach alot of things doesnt mean when the time comes they're actually going to do it, especially something they arent use to doing
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:04 pm to PiscesTiger
quote:
119th ranked offense.
It was 112th earlier in this thread, and it went to 113rh a page or two back...
Now it's 119th???
Were getting worse and the season hasn't even started!!!!!
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:06 pm to PiscesTiger
quote:Well, I guess it was just a matter of time.
I forgot that many of you watched a top offense last year while some of us had to settle for option B and a 119th ranked offense.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:06 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
no one even touched the defensive player. You really can't blame the rest of the offense for that
Weak arse shite
Hard to touch the defender when you have already given up on the play, right?
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:07 pm to Mike Linebacker
quote:
Simple math right. Divide yards by # of games and there's your answer. Wrong! You may have all forgotten that we had a kid from Harvard in 2008 who started the first three games of the season and played in six of them. So while Lee "played in" 11 games, he only played about half of the game v. Appalachian State and Auburn. I think he played a little more than half against North Texas that year and I want to say he was injured in the first quarter v. Ole Miss (it was definitely before half time). I could be wrong about these but assuming I am not, take Lee's 2,070 yards and divide them by 9 (the 7 games he was the man, plus 0.75 for North Texas, plus 0.25 for Ole Miss plus 0.5 for Appy State and 0.5 for Auburn). That yields 230 yards per game.
Do the same for Jefferson on an apples-to-apples basis. Jefferson, by my calculation, played in 11.5 games. He started Washington through Bama and was injured about halfway through the Bama game. He didn't play v. La Tech and then played full games against Ole Miss, Arky and PSU. Divide his 2,166 by 11.5 games and it yields 188.35 YPG.
So no, Jefferson did not throw
quote:
for the exact same amount of yards per game last year as Lee did in 2008
Lee threw for 41.65 YPG more than Jefferson.
Again, I'm not trying to say Lee is better (or worse). I'm just saying that statistics are like a string bikini. What they reveal is interesting. But what they cover up can be essential.
Carry on.
I actually did it differently. Because we are looking at yards per game, I took only the games were the quarterback threw the majority of the passes. I also did not use Jefferson's two Freshman starts and I did not use Lee's start against La. Tech this year because I comparing year to year (this actually worked to Lee's advantage because of his low numbers v. La Tech and Jefferson's decent numbers against Arkansas and GT).
Lee threw the majority of passes in the first ten games of the 2008 season. Jefferson threw the majority of passes in every game this year, minus La Tech.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:07 pm to just me
quote:
Well, I guess it was just a matter of time.
Maybe it's just me.
Posted on 7/27/10 at 4:07 pm to PiscesTiger
quote:
I think it's beyond ignorant that people actually believe Lee isn't competing for the starting role. I forgot that many of you watched a top offense last year while some of us had to settle for option B and a 119th ranked offense.
Really - why? Jefferson wasn't great last year, but did you watch J. Lee when he was in there? Have you watched him since midway in 2008? No, I don't think he's realistically competing for the starting job to start off the season based on what he's done with his chances. Now, should JJ mess up bad, then he'll have another chance. And at that point, he'll be competing for a starting role. Doesn't performance on the field mean anything? Yeah, our offense was not good last year, but our running game was much worse than our passing game when compared to Bama, Florida, etc.
quote:
However you have a group here that feels that jj is head and shoulders above jl and imo its complete Bs and that's where they bulk of these theads generate to and from
I'm not trying to bash Lee and I hope he does great if an opportunity presents itself this year. It's not easy to stick it out.
However, this idea that Lee is a better down field passer exists only in some people's minds so far (not saying you feel that way). In his first few games things looked promising in that area, but that promise has disappeared. He had wide open guys streaking toward the end zone against La.Tech and he missed on multiple occasions. It wasn't even close. Did people forget? J. Lee has had 13 games of 10 or more attempts and in those he's had a 30+ yard completion in 8/13. You takes JJ's first 13 games with 10 or more attempts and he's had 10/13 games with a 30+ yard completion.
Not only that, Lee was completely inaccurate on short passes too against Tech. One pass was so high that the ESPN announcers couldn't believe it. He was throwing some balls about 20 yards out of bounds when there was little pressure. That start was a legitimate opportunity for him. He had played almost a whole half against a great Bama team at their house. Nobody expected him to do anything special against Bama. That was not an issue. The game with Tech was in our house with almost no pressure. It wasn't like he hadn't played in six weeks. He had just been in a seriously competitive game against a great D and got the chance to play against a swiss-cheese D.
He went 7/22 (31%) for 105 yards and 1 TD. It was the only time the whole season that LSU wasn't in double digits for completions. Jefferson's lowest completion % on the season was also 20% better than that. Although JJ did only throw for 96 yards against Florida and was bad. However, they were the #1 team at the time and it was a defensive struggle. It didn't help that we didn't let Shep even see the field - our game plan sucked. But anyway, Lee's performance against Tech was one of the worst performances I ever remember by an LSU QB (especially considering the competition). And that was WITHOUT an Int! And let me say that basically all those Ints. the season before were returned for TDs because they were such awful throws. It wasn't because LSU players weren't trying to tackle them. They were usually gone before any LSU players had a realistic chance at getting them. But everyone makes freshman mistakes, so that's not the big issue. The issue is that he got a legit shot to show where he was at last year and the only way it could have gone worse is if we would have lost. It matters what people do in their most recent games.
Take a look at the last five starts for each guy:
Jarrett Lee - Opponents (Tulane, Alabama, Troy, Ole Miss, Louisiana Tech)
52-122 (42%)
650 yds. (130 yds. per game)
4 TDs, 7 Ints.
His long was 38 yards
He had a pass for 30+ in 3/5 games
Jordan Jefferson - Opponents (Tulane, Alabama, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Penn St.)
70-120 (58%)
908 yds (181 yards per game)
8 TDs, 4 Ints.
His long was 43 yards.
He's had a pass for 30+ in 4/5 games
JJ is clearly the best choice right now and statistically he is basically head and shoulders above Jarrett Lee. He was bad against Florida and struggled in a few other games with not taking chances. My biggest issue with him is the sacks he takes and the timing of them. He needs to make huge improvements in that area because he was really bad with that last season. Otherwise, he was young last year and still did a pretty good job. And he played very well at Bama before getting hurt.
Our running game SUCKED last year and it wasn't really because of him. He threw for over 200 against State, Ole Miss and Penn State and we still only averaged 1 yd. rushing per attempt. He lit up Auburn and we still didn't average 4 yards per carry. Our O-line had big issues and our RBs did as well at times. We didn't even have a 100-yard rusher or average 5 yards a carry against the Cajuns and that's a team that we should run over even if our RBs have been hit in the knee caps with a hammer like that dude in the movie "Misery"... When we can't do that against a team that we've basically dominated like no other, there are big issues. And we had those issues the whole season. JJ is pretty accurate though. So if we can get the running game going and have him get rid of the ball faster, we could be good on offense. He'll make his mistakes, but we should have a fair chance at all the games on our schedule if that happens. He's not great (at least not as of now), but he's clearly the best we've got based on recent play.
Page 13 of 21
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News