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re: Why is baseball dying?
Posted on 1/18/11 at 9:22 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 1/18/11 at 9:22 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:it's possible to be mentally retarded and play pro football. you know it. i know it
individual matchups still require a ton of reading/analysis, even in "dumb" positions like the DL (look at the trouble haynesworth had this year when he was forced to read and react)
quote:the hell they don't. You realize there are shifts and changes in defensive alignment in baseball too right?
baseball schemes don't change
quote:yea and in baseball pitchers are studying lineups as well, except you dont always know the lineup until minutes before gametime. You dont know beforehand if your curve/slider is going to have good bite on it or if your command is going to be good. I cant even get into the amount of variables, there are literally hundreds running through my head
but you're not studying pujols, you're studying 11 individuals, a formation, the trends in formations, the trends in playcalls, and the trends in audibles
quote:using stats and the overall theory of sabermetrics is most certainly NOT used in football anywhere CLOSE to how it's used in baseball
these exist in football and basketball too
2
Posted on 1/18/11 at 9:31 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
it's possible to be mentally retarded and play pro football. you know it. i know it
baseball is not full of scholars, even though this is the angle of superiority pushed by baseball fans
quote:
You realize there are shifts and changes in defensive alignment in baseball too right?
holy shite. a shift? that's truly a complete change in defensive scheme
i mean you do realize in football formation shifts occur nearly EVERY play?
and shifts in baseball are a white flag to strategy. (OK you shifted right for a right handed hitter...well the hitter and eveyone else on offense knows what you're going to do at that point) you still have no idea what the offense/defense will do in football, even with a shift. it's fluid. not static
quote:
except you dont always know the lineup until minutes before gametime.
you don't know the lineup in football until EACH PLAY (offense and defense)
quote:
I cant even get into the amount of variables, there are literally hundreds running through my head
and i can do the same with football, but for each variable you have to think about more than 1 player
quote:
using stats and the overall theory of sabermetrics is most certainly NOT used in football anywhere CLOSE to how it's used in baseball
bullshite
hell saban's defensive playbook from like 2000 had all sorts of desired statistical data. like 3. something yards per play. 5.7 negative plays per game. etc etc etc.
football is the most studied sport in america
and, again, we're not talking about JUST individuals. we're talking about statistical analysis of individuals, formations, shifts, audibles, positional groupings, etc
my friend is a GA for fricking MSU and the amount of data he has to consume, analyze, and spit out is insane after ONE night of game prep. and he only looks at 2 or 3 variables. every other coach gets more, and there are like 4-5 defensive coaches.
and that's at a D1AA school. there is a reason most pro football coaches sleep 3-4 hours per night during the season. after practice they watch film for hours, plot data, analyze the data, and then formulate gameplans based on this data.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 9:40 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:yea huh
baseball is not full of scholars
quote:and the hitter has no idea what pitch is coming until a half second before it gets to the plate.
you don't know the lineup in football until EACH PLAY (offense and defense)
dude each sport has similarities and areas that are more complex than the other. I played both for a long time. I know. I watch both all the time. baseball is more complex overall and much more difficult to play
quote:this has nothing to do with anything
football is the most studied sport in america
quote:yea i have no problem with the notion that the coaches do the majority of the thinking FOR the players in football
there is a reason most pro football coaches sleep 3-4 hours per night during the season. after practice they watch film for hours, plot data, analyze the data, and then formulate gameplans based on this data.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 9:44 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
and the hitter has no idea what pitch is coming until a half second before it gets to the plate.
and defenders have no idea what the WR/OL/RB they're matched up against are doing, let alone any other player who may affect them on that play (a pulling OG, another WR rubbing off coverage into your zone, etc)
and i already conceded batter-hitter to avoid that argument (whether 5-6 lesser matchups = 1 harder matchup)
quote:
this has nothing to do with anything
how does studying a sport and analyzing the trends/stats of that sport not fall into a discussion on statistical analysis? by definition it fits in that discussion.
just because there isn't a fancy name doesn't mean that there isn't statistical analysis
and i'll put it another way
the statistical analysis in football is so tough that it's not popular for the common fan, b/c it's too complex
statistical analysis in baseball is very popular for the common fan
quote:
yea i have no problem with the notion that the coaches do the majority of the thinking FOR the players in football
coaching? yes
scheming? yes
thinking? no
execution? no
teamwork? no
Posted on 1/18/11 at 9:59 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:Hate to aree with SFP, but the NFL is miles ahead of MLB in using statistical analysis. The reason there hasn't been a football Bill James is because he's working for the Patriots and his work is proprietary,
using stats and the overall theory of sabermetrics is most certainly NOT used in football anywhere CLOSE to how it's used in baseball
Football teams break out tendencies to a ridiculous degree, and they are aware of the latest statistical research. Even the one that says you should never, ever punt. In fact, a high school team actually did it and won the state title.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:01 am to Baloo
if anybody noticed, teams in college and the NFL started going for it on 4th down a shite-ton this year
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:02 am to Baloo
you shut your mouth traitor!
quote:i remember reading about this. supposedly by restructuring your play calling to account for having 4 downs to get a first is quite beneficial. didn't they actualy punt a couple times during the season though?
high school team actually did it and won the state title.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:26 am to Zach
quote:
You have to learn the skill set around 7 or 8 years old.
The same as in soccer actually, as most big European clubs recruit kids at that age. The reason that most kids stop playing soccer in HS is that HS soccer isn't the best preparation for college or pro ball, they basically lack of access to a youth academy. Baseball is much more ingrained and there are more opportunities to play at a higher level.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:39 am to cwill
quote:
Have no idea what you're talking about. MLB easily more popular than NBA.
It has taken a hit. But this is true. Right now when compared to the NFL, nothing compares. BUT it is second.
Baseball comes and goes the way of the Yankees. I am sure it was mentioned already but I am not reading every post. The international aspect of the game is hurting it in the American market. They have "grown the game" but there are less and less white OR BLACK players. This has been a complaint for some time now though.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:41 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
you shut your mouth traitor!
Sorry, just disagreed with one of your points. I still think baseball is more complex strategically while football is more complex tactically. Basic strategy in football does not change, its just the methods to get there. Baseball has far more "ways to win".
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:47 am to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
Baseball comes and goes the way of the Yankees.
The Cubs winning a World Series would be the biggest deal since the wheel was invented.
...
I'm a Cubs fan. I can make those jokes.
As far as baseball dying, I just don't see it.
This post was edited on 1/18/11 at 10:47 am
Posted on 1/18/11 at 10:54 am to Deathrider
Damn this thread is still being talked about, this is my longest thread ever. 
ETA: fwiw, I love baseball. So I hope it never dies. Even with as much heartache being a braves fan, the words "spring training" get me as excited as a kid on Christmas morning.
ETA: fwiw, I love baseball. So I hope it never dies. Even with as much heartache being a braves fan, the words "spring training" get me as excited as a kid on Christmas morning.
This post was edited on 1/18/11 at 10:56 am
Posted on 1/18/11 at 11:34 am to Baloo
quote:
Soccer fans are the most defensive about their sport, as they've adopted a siege mentality.
To be fair most of this siege mentality has a decent underlying reason. I'm sure you Baloo, remember how difficult it was a few years ago for soccer threads to go multiple pages without someone flaming the sport. For whatever genesis, fans often see soccer as an easy target because it's a "foreign" sport. What they don't understand is that most American sports are just evolutions of English sports (American football = organized rugby, baseball = cricket with bases, to generalize). Not to mention posters like Zach, Rex or Lester Earl (who may have a fair amount sports knowledge in their own right) just enjoy bashing the sport because of a divine right as an American.
Most American soccer fans don't insult other sports, because they're fans of those sports. I really don't get why people think that they enjoy insulting other sports. If we nitpick at another sport, it's often to prove how asinine arguments about the superiority of certain sports can become.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 11:57 am to thenry712
I'm not saying the siege mentality isn't justified, it just is there. We hockey fans are the same way. I'll never understand what possesses someone to jump in a thread of a sport they don't like just to tell everyone they don't like that sport. I don't like golf, so I pretty much ignore golf threads. If there was thread on the general popularity of golf, I would chime in, but the idea of just jumping in on, say, a thread on the Masters and telling everyone golf sucks is truly bizarre.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 12:01 pm to Pilot Tiger
I really don't think the sport is dying. Even though I prefer the NBA to MLB, baseball is HUGE out West (especially in Calirfornia). That being said, it is also HUGE in Chicago, St. Louis and the Northeast/New England area. For some reason, it lacks in the Southern area of the United States. I think the season is too long (but I also think they should shorten the NBA season to around 50ish games too).
Posted on 1/18/11 at 12:29 pm to Baloo
quote:
I'll never understand what possesses someone to jump in a thread of a sport they don't like just to tell everyone they don't like that sport. I don't like golf, so I pretty much ignore golf threads. If there was thread on the general popularity of golf, I would chime in, but the idea of just jumping in on, say, a thread on the Masters and telling everyone golf sucks is truly bizarre.
This times a million.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 1:19 pm to crazy4lsu
I'll admit to not reading the thread and jumping in late so if this has been convered I apologize.
When I was a kid there were a ton of American black athletes in pro baseball, some Hispanics and a ton of white guys. Now baseball seems to be mostly Hispanics and whites. Sure there are still blacks playing professional baseball but not nearly the numbers there used to be.
It's within reason that we'd also lose a lot of black fans from the game. So, we now have a game dominated by whites and Hispanics. It seems to me we've lost a segment of our population as fans.
Now for me presonally. Baseball lost me with the last series of strikes. Sure, it's fun to go to a game here and there but there's no way in hell I'd sit down and watch a baseball game on television. It's simply too damned slow moving and boring for me.
When I was a kid there were a ton of American black athletes in pro baseball, some Hispanics and a ton of white guys. Now baseball seems to be mostly Hispanics and whites. Sure there are still blacks playing professional baseball but not nearly the numbers there used to be.
It's within reason that we'd also lose a lot of black fans from the game. So, we now have a game dominated by whites and Hispanics. It seems to me we've lost a segment of our population as fans.
Now for me presonally. Baseball lost me with the last series of strikes. Sure, it's fun to go to a game here and there but there's no way in hell I'd sit down and watch a baseball game on television. It's simply too damned slow moving and boring for me.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 1:20 pm to crazy4lsu
I'll admit to not reading the thread and jumping in late so if this has been convered I apologize.
When I was a kid there were a ton of American black athletes in pro baseball, some Hispanics and a ton of white guys. Now baseball seems to be mostly Hispanics and whites. Sure there are still blacks playing professional baseball but not nearly the numbers there used to be.
It's within reason that we'd also lose a lot of black fans from the game. So, we now have a game dominated by whites and Hispanics. It seems to me we've lost a segment of our population as fans.
Now for me presonally. Baseball lost me with the last series of strikes. Sure, it's fun to go to a game here and there but there's no way in hell I'd sit down and watch a baseball game on television. It's simply too damned slow moving and boring for me.
When I was a kid there were a ton of American black athletes in pro baseball, some Hispanics and a ton of white guys. Now baseball seems to be mostly Hispanics and whites. Sure there are still blacks playing professional baseball but not nearly the numbers there used to be.
It's within reason that we'd also lose a lot of black fans from the game. So, we now have a game dominated by whites and Hispanics. It seems to me we've lost a segment of our population as fans.
Now for me presonally. Baseball lost me with the last series of strikes. Sure, it's fun to go to a game here and there but there's no way in hell I'd sit down and watch a baseball game on television. It's simply too damned slow moving and boring for me.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 1:24 pm to Baloo
People that do that think people actually give a frick about what they have to say. Plain and simple.
Posted on 1/18/11 at 1:38 pm to NOTORlOUSD
THE YANKEES and the few teams willing to chase them - RED SOX and a few others
All leagues should operate like the NFL than every team has a chance every year - with some having to have better offseasons but at least the playing field is somewhat equal.
I just hope the new labor deal for the NFL doesn't destroy the league as we know it now
All leagues should operate like the NFL than every team has a chance every year - with some having to have better offseasons but at least the playing field is somewhat equal.
I just hope the new labor deal for the NFL doesn't destroy the league as we know it now
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