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Started By
Message
re: The health staff will limit this team
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:09 pm to Bronc
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:09 pm to Bronc
quote:
o which that article also goes on to speak about the lifetime reoccurrence probability of full hamstring injuries, which is notably high.
Your argument is to essentially take a guy that is theoretically only 70% recovered from one of the most re-injury prone injuries, to come back at 70%. When, already last night, he definitely wasn't close to 100% even on a minutes restriction and multiple practices to ramp up. Risking not just re-aggravation in the short term, but potentially creating a career-long problem.
I am very glad you don't actually have any medical credentials or make health decisions about actual human beings.
Jesus Christ--at this point you all are intentionally being obtuse.
That study talks about tears and goes through the entire gambit of therapy if surgery is required. Of course, it will take much longer for a guy with surgery to recover. BI was diagnosed with a MILD HAMSTRING injury. That's what we are basing this discussion on. Parameters set.
quote:
70% recovered from one of the most re-injury prone injuries, to come back at 70%. When, already last night, he definitely wasn't close to 100%
Second point--he wasn't 100% last night so I think that proves more of my point that there is a point where you can play through a hamstring injury without being 100%.
1
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:11 pm to The_Duke
quote:Ok. 1 week ago, point still stands, you're still proven wrong. You're getting technical with "1" vs "1-2" weeks and avoiding the point, that you were proven wrong last night.
Strawman--this convo didn't kick off 2 weeks ago.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:12 pm to The_Duke
quote:Best post of this thread
Second point--he wasn't 100% last night so I think that proves more of my point
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:16 pm to shel311
quote:
Best post of this thread
am I conversing with a bunch of old farts who are border-line demented?
I never once claimed BI was 100% ready to go and they were just keeping him out just because. I have always said the barrier to playing should not be 100% pain-free--that many all-time great athletes have played through injuries in crunch time.
You all have made the "he needs to be 100%" claim. Not me.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:18 pm to shel311
quote:
Ok. 1 week ago, point still stands, you're still proven wrong. You're getting technical with "1" vs "1-2" weeks and avoiding the point, that you were proven wrong last night.
I'm confused as to how I or anyone else who thinks you can play through injuries was proven wrong last night.
Our medical team had CJ and JV listed as Questionable and yet they played nearly 40 minutes last night and most of it coming in the second half.
My position is team play through injuries---which is what happened last night
This post was edited on 3/28/22 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:20 pm to The_Duke
quote:And last night proved your insinuation that the Pels would bring him back at 100% was not the case.
I have always said the barrier to playing should not be 100% pain-free
So, you're wrong on basically every level of all the arguments you made.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:20 pm to Bronc
The biggest issue in this whole argument between the two sides is injury severity. What that article is talking about is 100% correct with regards to graded hamstring injuries. When a player suffers even a grade 1 hamstring injury, but definitely a grade 2 or grade 3, they instantly leave the game. They are unable to run because their hamstring cannot tolerate the load with push off and knee flexion at toe off in the running cycle.
BI never left a game with an injury. In fact, he was playing the best basketball of his career. Then, he was held out for 10 games for "hamstring soreness." So, I am inclined to believe that he was held out that long for precautionary reasons. That is completely up to the discretion of the practitioner, in this case, Aaron Nelson. It is okay to say that Nelson leans towards being rather conservative.
I have been critical recently of the medical staff and their decisions to hold guys out. Nelson does have a very long and respected track record in the NBA. However, since joining the Pels, he has been very conservative. I think this is in conjunction with Grif and the front office giving input on timelines. He had no history of holding guys out this long in Phoenix, including Grant Hill and Steve Nash. His reputation was built on having guys like that available. It is completely understandable for fans to be frustrated with these restrictions as they make a playoff push.
Maybe it is the messaging. I can tell you that I would have a completely different opinion if Ingram would have left a game with a hamstring injury and it would have been diagnosed as a grade 2 strain.
BI never left a game with an injury. In fact, he was playing the best basketball of his career. Then, he was held out for 10 games for "hamstring soreness." So, I am inclined to believe that he was held out that long for precautionary reasons. That is completely up to the discretion of the practitioner, in this case, Aaron Nelson. It is okay to say that Nelson leans towards being rather conservative.
I have been critical recently of the medical staff and their decisions to hold guys out. Nelson does have a very long and respected track record in the NBA. However, since joining the Pels, he has been very conservative. I think this is in conjunction with Grif and the front office giving input on timelines. He had no history of holding guys out this long in Phoenix, including Grant Hill and Steve Nash. His reputation was built on having guys like that available. It is completely understandable for fans to be frustrated with these restrictions as they make a playoff push.
Maybe it is the messaging. I can tell you that I would have a completely different opinion if Ingram would have left a game with a hamstring injury and it would have been diagnosed as a grade 2 strain.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:20 pm to The_Duke
quote:
My position is team play through injuries---which is what happened last night
You don't play through a hamstring injury. James Harden reinjured himself several times trying to do so.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:21 pm to The_Duke
quote:You're moving the goalposts.
I'm confused as to how I or anyone else who thinks you can play through injuries was proven wrong last night.
Your claim was that he could have come back 1 or more weeks ago. If he wasn't even 100% last night, it stands to reason he was much further from 100% 1+ weeks ago. So again, you were wrong.
quote:Your position was the Pels don't let them, 3 guys proved you wrong last night, not just BI, but BI mostly.
My position is team play through injuries---which is what happened last night
This post was edited on 3/28/22 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:24 pm to shel311
quote:
Your claim was that he could have come back 1 or more weeks ago. If he wasn't even 100% last night, it stands to reason he was much further from 100% 1+ weeks ago. So again, you were wrong.
Where are you getting this info from? I think the earliest we began beating the drum about where is BI was for the Charlotte game which was just last Monday. Then we picked it up for the Bulls game. We all understood the Spurs game since it was a back-to-back.
quote:
Your position was the Pels don't let them, 3 guys proved you wrong last night, not just BI, but BI mostly.
Yes!! they listed guys as questionable that played 40 mins! with most of the minutes coming in the 2nd half! you don't get healthier as the game progress. Someone told them to frick of finally.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:26 pm to The_Duke
quote:
I have always said the barrier to playing should not be 100% pain-free
1.) You arent a doctor, so for the umptenth time, you have ZERO credibility on making health related judgements on these matters. Your opinion holds literally zero value or credibility
2.) It was absolutely clear to any and everyone that BI was not 100%. So this entire premise of yours is broken from the start
All season guys have played when questionable or with bumps and bruises, including BI last night. Your argument essentially boils down to: I have made an assumption about BI's recovery progress, I am assuming it is further along than reported, despite no evidence, and I am casting judgements on Aaron Nelson for it, despite no evidence, and despite a stellar track record for managing team injuries over a season, I'm declaring Aaron Nelson a net negative influence on the team's competitiveness
This post was edited on 3/28/22 at 12:27 pm
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:29 pm to The_Duke
Your original argument
This was wrong, it's ok to admit it.
It was neither of those.
You argued the team was being overly cautious and didn't want to win. BI playing not 100% last night, AGAIN, proves that wrong on multiple fronts. They weren't being super cautious last night since he played less than 100%, and it also proved they weren't being overly cautious the previous games, he just simply wasn't ready.
quote:
BI was diagnosed with a mild hamstring injury—-now either they are lying or they ar being overly cautious.
It can only be those two options
Not sure why this is so hard to grasp
This was wrong, it's ok to admit it.
It was neither of those.
You argued the team was being overly cautious and didn't want to win. BI playing not 100% last night, AGAIN, proves that wrong on multiple fronts. They weren't being super cautious last night since he played less than 100%, and it also proved they weren't being overly cautious the previous games, he just simply wasn't ready.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:36 pm to shel311
quote:
You argued the team was being overly cautious and didn't want to win. BI playing not 100% last night, AGAIN, proves that wrong on multiple fronts. They weren't being super cautious last night since he played less than 100%, and it also proved they weren't being overly cautious the previous games, he just simply wasn't ready.
Soooooooooo they lied and it wasn't simply a mild hamstring injury? and that is why he needed more time? I think that's what you are saying without actually saying it cause that was part of my OG premise.
Or were they just being cautious cause he wasn't 100%? which I also argued you don't need to be 100% to come back from a "MILD HAMSTRING" injury because reinjuring anything lower than a grade 3 is very low.
Still confused about how I was wrong. You're talking as if I made a claim that he's not injured at all.
This post was edited on 3/28/22 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:39 pm to ThePistol
quote:
However, since joining the Pels, he has been very conservative.
Based on what though?
To make any sort of judgement like this requires you to have knowledge of a plurality of player's recovery benchmarks and medical evaluations/imaging. Having the knowledge to understand and evaluate them, and draw some sort of conclusion...Which none of us have access to, or are qualified to do.
In the absence of having that evidence, any conclusion like you have drawn is built on evidence-less assumptions, from a place with zero medical expertise, so you are trusting these conclusions you have landed on based entirely on faith. And when the net result of Nelson as team medical overseer is his teams have fewer injuries, that faith-based argument strains even more credibility than it already lacks.
This post was edited on 3/28/22 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:40 pm to The_Duke
quote:They never said when he'd be back so how would they like that he needed "more time"
Soooooooooo they lied and it wasn't simply a mild hamstring injury? and that is why he needed more time?
quote:You seem to be insinuating the Pels released an official or even unofficial return date.
Still confused about how I was wrong. You're talking as if I made a claim that he's not injured at all.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:43 pm to shel311
quote:
hey never said when he'd be back so how would they like that he needed "more time"
Diagnosed as a mild hamstring
quote:
You seem to be insinuating the Pels released an official or even unofficial return date.
Diagnosed as a mild hamstring
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:48 pm to The_Duke
A mild strain is typically considered grade 1, the very thing the article you want to discredit spoke about having a high probability of reinjury
And again, you have no expertise in sports medicine, so you have no credibility making any sort of medical judgements
And again, you have no expertise in sports medicine, so you have no credibility making any sort of medical judgements
This post was edited on 3/28/22 at 12:49 pm
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:50 pm to The_Duke
quote:And that was never proven wrong, WTF are you talking about right now?
Diagnosed as a mild hamstring
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:52 pm to Bronc
quote:
Based on what though?
Based on the injuries that are reported. I have already acknowledged that the issue could be the way they are reporting these injuries. It could be how injuries have been reported, whether that is Zion's meniscus surgery, BI's hamstring soreness, or many others. Being a fan with direct knowledge of how long the typical patient takes to recover and return to play with these injuries is incredibly frustrating at times. These guys are professional athletes that get a much higher frequency of treatment.
Posted on 3/28/22 at 12:52 pm to Bronc
quote:
A mild strain is typically considered grade 1, the very thing the article you want to discredit spoke about having a high probability of reinjury
Nope---only 9% for grade 1
"Within this study, a clinically-based classification system (Table 1) was found to provide an effective clinical tool to assess risk of re-injury and return to play time, with Grade II injuries having the great risk for recurrence (24%) followed by Grade I (9.3%)
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