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re: Can you teach a child morality without religion?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:01 am to WaWaWeeWa
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:01 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Not a single civilization you are discussing had even the slightest notion of equality
that wasn't the discussion thread you replied to
don't create diversion points
1
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
how did we live under Christianity for 3x the time without equality if its the concept of God in that religion?
Good question. I’m glad you are agreeing that their has been progress throughout history.
I’m not arguing for Christianity. Somehow man reasoned it’s way to “we are all equal under god”... I agree with you on that point. But then how do we stay under that morality without god?
We can’t. It devolves to moral relativism because there is no hierarchy with someone above man. And we all know where that goes.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:05 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
that wasn't the discussion thread you replied to don't create diversion points
Equality isn’t a core principle of morality?
So you would be ok with being born and dying as a serf? As well as your children, etc.
That’s been the case for much of history
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:11 am to colorchangintiger
quote:
Either way this thread is lost and I weep for our future if people are legitimately asking who are we to judge the German Nazi regime for being immoral.
Don't be skeert ColorChangin… I weep for it too.
I am just pointing out the logical outworking of the atheist worldview. That doesn't mean atheists are immoral as people or anarchists. It means that atheists have no basis for an absolute moral rejection of the Holocaust. If society defines a new morality, and morality is defined by society, who are we to judge?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:17 am to CivilTiger83
Okay. So lets say that the Christian God and his word, the Bible, is the basis for morality. Is slavery moral now? And not only that, shouldn't trying to escape slavery be immoral?
quote:
1Tim 6:1-2 1Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.2Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. False Teaching and True Riches Teach and urge these duties.
quote:
Col 3:22-24 22Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.23Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters,24since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:17 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
I am just pointing out the logical outworking of the atheist worldview. That doesn't mean atheists are immoral as people or anarchists. It means that atheists have no basis for an absolute moral rejection of the Holocaust. If society defines a new morality, and morality is defined by society, who are we to judge?
This is painfully idiotic. You and WeeWee trying to play intellectuals in this thread has been amusing. I'll let SFP keep smacking you around now
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:17 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Equality isn’t a core principle of morality?
it's a core concept of modern government and how government applies its force to the population
arguing that equality is a part of morality requires some VERY precise definitions, primarily because each human is genetically different and therefore we are all unequal in terms of abilities (because we're all different)
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
through historical analysis and reason. the same way we developed all of our morality
What historical analysis and reason did you present? You only said "it was clear". You didn't provide a logical reason or basis at all... Care to give your historical analysis and reason?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:20 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Good question. I’m glad you are agreeing that their has been progress throughout history.
assuming morality is from (a) god, then this shouldn't occur
quote:
I’m not arguing for Christianity.
weren't you arguing earlier about "Western Judeo-Christian values" and western culture earlier?
quote:
But then how do we stay under that morality without god?
i mean when we're talking equality, we're talking about governments. why does god need to have a role within that secular framework?
quote:
It devolves to moral relativism because there is no hierarchy with someone above man.
that's not true. you're assuming that moral relativism would be the end result when history says that's not true
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:24 am to colorchangintiger
quote:
Okay. So lets say that the Christian God and his word, the Bible, is the basis for morality. Is slavery moral now? And not only that, shouldn't trying to escape slavery be immoral?
ColorChangin, I love that you posted that.
Where do you see that verse upholding slavery as a righteous institution? It merely establishes that in a broken world, you are called to live with honor, grace and mercy.
Jesus also said to give to Ceasar what is Ceaser's, and this was a murderous/immoral government. It was not affirmation of Rome as a good government, but an establishment of how you personally live in an imperfect world.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:28 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
Where do you see that verse upholding slavery as a righteous institution?
Can you find any where in the Bible where slavery is condemned as an immoral evil institution?
quote:
Jesus also said to give to Ceasar what is Ceaser's, and this was a murderous/immoral government. It was not affirmation of Rome as a good government, but an establishment of how you personally live in an imperfect world.
This only shows how stupid it is to hold the Bible up as the fountainhead of morality.
This post was edited on 11/1/18 at 9:32 am
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:29 am to MusclesofBrussels
quote:
This is painfully idiotic. You and WeeWee trying to play intellectuals in this thread has been amusing. I'll let SFP keep smacking you around now
I am no more an intellectual than you are or represented myself as such... it's just a good ole internet discussion.
If my arguments are idiotic and painful, it should be simple to expose these silly statements as logically wrong correct? I welcome the dialogue, and I will stay away from name calling... whether or not you choose to do the same is up to you.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:33 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
If my arguments are idiotic and painful, it should be simple to expose these silly statements as logically wrong correct?
People that are purposely obtuse never see what's wrong with their beliefs.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:35 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
that's not true. you're assuming that moral relativism would be the end result when history says that's not true
What history? What historical society do you have without god or a higher power as a part of the founding and underlying principles?
Mao’s China? Stalin’s Russia? They said the “state” is essentially god. The problem is the state is made up of humans.
Your main flaw is that you think humans can “play nice” without a hierarchy which at its peak sits a power ABOVE MAN.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:37 am to colorchangintiger
quote:
Can you find any where in the Bible where slavery is condemned as an immoral evil institution?
Rome was an immoral, evil institution and Jesus did not condemn it. He dealt with each individual's heart. The Bible teaches that one day we will all be judged. What is the greatest commandment?
quote:
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
One day we all will have to see how our decisions weigh against that standard. I have fallen short in my own life. Have you?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:37 am to LandPhil
Of course you can. The 10 commandments aren't something that's unique to Christianity, they're mostly things any reasonable person would follow. I've been to church maybe 10 times in my life and wan't raised to follow any religion but I still consider myself to be a moral person. The Golden Rule is a pretty good guideline for life.
That said, Steve Harvey disagrees lol.
That said, Steve Harvey disagrees lol.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:39 am to Cosmo
quote:
You have to replace religion with something. Progressives replace it with government.
?????
I'd say education is the easy "replacement".
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:42 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
I have fallen short in my own life. Have you?
No. I am absolutely perfect. Never made a mistake or have a single regret. Everyone loves me and I love everyone.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:43 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
What historical analysis and reason did you present?
multiple cultures across the ancient world seemed to derive the same core concepts of societal interaction (which became law, which became moral codes through the state-sponsored religion)
we're talking pre-Judaism society like Sumer
quote:
You didn't provide a logical reason or basis at all...
the point of law (which was morality in antiquity) was, once again, created to decrease societal disruption, chaos, and/or conflict
prior to society, these acts were not nearly as disruptive, because most groups were not settled and may never interact again. with the development of agriculture and society, humans became stationary. our group identifications changed. our groups became larger and larger. this presented a new set of issues, primarily DCC
in order to minimize DDC, societies developed legal codes which were implanted in the local religion to reinforce the concept. that's where "morality" developed
the same behaviors cause DDC, so the ones that were most likely to create DDC were outlawed near universally. we aren't born with an innate morality. we are socialized within the concept of society to make society function better. when DDC isn't regulated well enough, no only does this decrease the efficiency of the society, but it also creates a more likely scenario for revolt (giving the leader motivation to find the "goldilocks" legal-moral system)
if you're too lenient, then chaos emerges and your seat is at risk
if you're too strict, then the people become disruptive and join to overthrow you
it's a constant, flowing pattern subject to short term extremities (like the Nazis or just war, generally)
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:44 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
What historical society do you have without god or a higher power as a part of the founding and underlying principles?
the 3 greatest empires in the history of the world
1. Rome
2. The Monguls
3. America
*ETA: Persian may make it 4
This post was edited on 11/1/18 at 9:45 am
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