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re: Oklahoma lawmakers OK bill criminalizing performing abortion
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:31 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:31 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Here's what I don't get about the whole pro-choice stance. How can they say that life does not begin at conception?
I think it comes down to how you define "life". If the fetus, embryo, or even zygote could survive and continue to grow outside the mother's body, I think most if not all pro-choice people would prefer that over an abortion, but that's not really an option.
2
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:38 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
I think it comes down to how you define "life". If the fetus, embryo, or even zygote could survive and continue to grow outside the mother's body, I think most if not all pro-choice people would prefer that over an abortion, but that's not really an option.
How does the ability to survive outside the womb constitute being the moment life begins?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:39 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Here's what I don't get about the whole pro-choice stance. How can they say that life does not begin at conception?
I think a better question would be, why do you care? It's fine if you think abortion is bad, you don't even have to get one if you don't want to. Deciding what is good, bad, or moral for someone else makes you an a-hole by default. Mind your own business. If a woman, or even juvenile, wants to have an abortion that should be between her, whomever she chooses to involve, and her doctor. It does not involve or harm anyone else, so why would you care?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:41 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
How does the ability to survive outside the womb constitute being the moment life begins?
It doesn't. But until it can survive outside the womb, the owner of the womb is the only one who gets to make that decision.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:48 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Here's what I don't get about the whole pro-choice stance. How can they say that life does not begin at conception? If life does not start at the point of conception, when does it start? And what denotes whatever arbitrary point they consider the beginning of life as the actual beginning instead of conception? In other words, if you say life does not start at conception, then show me the proof to back up that claim.
There's a lot of grey area to interpretations of what constitutes life. There is even more grey area as to the place of the government to involve itself in things like this. This entire issue is one gigantic grey area from a moral perspective. A person could write tomes going back and forth on different perspectives and contradictions within both and many ideologies.
I don't have the patience or energy right now to even attempt to delve into it other than to say if you think there is a simple answer either way then you are wrong.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:48 pm to Barf
quote:
I think a better question would be, why do you care?
Well, being that I do believe life begins at conception, the act of abortion is in fact murder.
quote:
It's fine if you think abortion is bad, you don't even have to get one if you don't want to. Deciding what is good, bad, or moral for someone else makes you an a-hole by default.
By your line of reasoning, isn't the mother who decides to kill her unborn child an a-hole for deciding that it's best they die?
quote:
Mind your own business. If a woman, or even juvenile, wants to have an abortion that should be between her, whomever she chooses to involve, and her doctor. It does not involve or harm anyone else, so why would you care?
Again, unless you can show me scientific proof otherwise, I contend that life begins at conception, and that life is human. One of the cornerstones of our Republic is that all people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. The fact that human has not passed through their mother's vaginal canal does not mean those unalienable rights are voided and thus killing them without just cause before they have the chance to be born is in fact murder.
Ball is back in your court.
1. Show me the scientific proof that life begins at some point after conception
2. Show me a solid legal reason an unborn person should not have the same legal rights as all other persons.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:51 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
It doesn't. But until it can survive outside the womb, the owner of the womb is the only one who gets to make that decision.
Didn't they make that decision when they chose to engage in activity they knew could lead to them becoming pregnant? After that point the equation is not just them. Now it's them and an unborn person. Yes it's their womb. But what is inside their womb is a living human with their own rights that should be protected.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:54 pm to TechDawg2007
Good for Oklahoma.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:59 pm to Darth_Vader
i'd love to hear your thoughts on what to do with an ectopic pregnancy
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:00 pm to TechDawg2007
Idiots.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:04 pm to Barf
quote:
It does not involve or harm anyone else, so why would you care?
Would you care if a doctor executed a 10 minute old new born baby with a scalpel on the mother's orders? If you think the right way, it sure as hell harms someone else: the child. In fact, it quite literally kills them. That's why people get so passionate about it.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:04 pm to Darth_Vader
Aren't you like a huge war mongerer? Our military has killed thousands of innocent civilians in places we don't need to be in. Our intelligence agencies have incited civil wars that have led to countless deaths and installed dictators who have killed innocent people. We've executed innocent people on death row. We're an incredibly gun obsessed society, both in the private and law enforcement sector, that leads to many more deaths than are necessary. We don't regulate people's diets or outlaw tobacco, both of which lead to millions of deaths. We don't even provide the best possible healthcare to some people if they can't afford it. And they die.
Just to clarify, I don't really care about any of that, bc there are plenty of legit reasons we do all those things the way we do. But the imaginary line in the sand that some people draw about the "sanctity" of life when it comes to abortions is bullshite.
And that's without even getting to the debate over whether consciousness or ability to survive outside the womb constitutes life. Or whether if you count a zygote as life, why isn't sperm or an egg considered life? But that really is irrelevant. Life is amazing, but it's so hypocritical to jerk yourself off over protecting life inside a womb and then not giving a shite about it as soon as it's out
Just to clarify, I don't really care about any of that, bc there are plenty of legit reasons we do all those things the way we do. But the imaginary line in the sand that some people draw about the "sanctity" of life when it comes to abortions is bullshite.
And that's without even getting to the debate over whether consciousness or ability to survive outside the womb constitutes life. Or whether if you count a zygote as life, why isn't sperm or an egg considered life? But that really is irrelevant. Life is amazing, but it's so hypocritical to jerk yourself off over protecting life inside a womb and then not giving a shite about it as soon as it's out
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:05 pm to joeyb147
quote:
i'd love to hear your thoughts on what to do with an ectopic pregnancy
You preform surgery.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:08 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Well, being that I do believe life begins at conception, the act of abortion is in fact murder.
It's ok for you to believe this, it's well within your rights. However, your specific moral code is not the basis of law, not should it be.
quote:
By your line of reasoning, isn't the mother who decides to kill her unborn child an a-hole for deciding that it's best they die?
Sure. I'm not pro abortion by any stretch of the imagination. I think it's gross but at the same time it does not involve me so what makes me qualified to decided what someone can and cannot do when it doesn't involve me?
quote:
1. Show me the scientific proof that life begins at some point after conception
This is irrelevant.
quote:
2. Show me a solid legal reason an unborn person should not have the same legal rights as all other persons.
Well, there is the whole unborn thing but that's not really the point.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:08 pm to kywildcatfanone
Here's my question....if it's not a baby why if a pregnant woman is murdered do they charge the killer for 2 counts of murder? It either has rights in all instances or in none can't have it both ways.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:12 pm to TGFN57
Who gives a shite? It a women wants to have an abortion then she should be able too. Life is not nearly as precious as most people make it out to be. It was here millions, perhaps billions, of years before I was born, and will continue long after I'm gone. The idea that any one person is "special" is each person's selfish need to believe that their life is "special." Is it to you and those you know, sure; but in the grand scheme of things were each just a drop of water in a vast, vast ocean. No one life is really that special. Millions of organisms die each day, including thousands of humans, and no one blinks an eye unless you actually knew the person. Why should I blink if a woman that I don't give a damn about wants have an abortion?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:14 pm to bcoop199
quote:
Here's my question....if it's not a baby why if a pregnant woman is murdered do they charge the killer for 2 counts of murder? It either has rights in all instances or in none can't have it both ways.
It's a hypocrisy of the system. Our legal system is designed in such a way as to maximize penalties and time in jail. You can see this in a variety of other ways. But that's an entirely different topic.
This post was edited on 5/19/16 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:15 pm to tigerfan88
quote:
Aren't you like a huge war mongerer? Our military has killed thousands of innocent civilians in places we don't need to be in. Our intelligence agencies have incited civil wars that have led to countless deaths and installed dictators who have killed innocent people. We've executed innocent people on death row.
So you're against killing gown soldiers but your for killing unborn babies? Bet you're anti-capital punishment as well, right?
That's liberal logic right there for you.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:16 pm to slackster
quote:
States rights, no?
Supremacy Clause, no?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:17 pm to bcoop199
quote:
.if it's not a baby why if a pregnant woman is murdered do they charge the killer for 2 counts of murder? It either has rights in all instances or in none can't have it both ways.
Well, one's an elective medical procedure that the mother chooses to have and the other is murder committed against the mother against her will.
I will say that there should be an allowance to give the fathers the same choice as the mothers. If the fathers want an abortion they should be able to legally "abort" any and all legal ties to the child even if the mother decides to have the baby.
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