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Message
2
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:07 am to Pettifogger
quote:
How can we promote pro-natalism and pro- family policies without abuse?
What potential abuse are you referring to?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:17 am to Pettifogger
This is the million dollar question I could never get to discuss..
Stop throwing money at welfare and let’s figure something out that promotes the both parents and child.
There are more kids coming now that abortion is limited and I want to help them have help becoming productive members of society.that to me is the real prolife position. And it’s for the future of our own kids.
And REAL consequences for parents who neglect their kids.
Stop throwing money at welfare and let’s figure something out that promotes the both parents and child.
There are more kids coming now that abortion is limited and I want to help them have help becoming productive members of society.that to me is the real prolife position. And it’s for the future of our own kids.
And REAL consequences for parents who neglect their kids.
This post was edited on 9/2/24 at 9:44 am
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:28 am to TigerChick2018
I am not disagreeing with any of this.
So when a woman finds herself pregnant, the man should have to help shoulder whatever costs are associated with said pregnancy. He SHOULD have a say in if she carries to term if he wants it. It he should be there every step of the way.
And there needs to be SOME kind of support for kids who are born into abuse and neglect. And that does not involve throwing money at the welfare system. What can we do to help them become better future citizens, cause right now what is going on is not working. parents need to be held an accountable for abuse or neglect more than they are. What I see everyday at school makes me irate. I mean they just keep having them and collecting a check. Personally, one of the things I would do is forced IUDs on some people after so many kids they choose not to take care of. Life IS sacred, especially after being born. I want something to facilitate a support system for these kids because , I’ll say it again, we need LESS of what we are seeing out of the youth of today because of their upbringing because most of us have brought up decent kids that have to live in society with them long after we are gone. And I applaud the ones who push through their adversity but if we can help more of them, I want to hear ideas.
I pointed out that the vast majority on this board just call women whores and sluts and evert other name in the book and it’s funny how those don’t get directed at the man nearly as much, who can just as easily slap on a condom. One even said he liked your post because you didn’t go after men.
And I will fully acknowledge that men have no say, so let’s talk it out in a civilized way.. not sure how me choosing life in an unexpected pregnancy was grounds for the personal attacks. It’s hypocrisy
So when a woman finds herself pregnant, the man should have to help shoulder whatever costs are associated with said pregnancy. He SHOULD have a say in if she carries to term if he wants it. It he should be there every step of the way.
And there needs to be SOME kind of support for kids who are born into abuse and neglect. And that does not involve throwing money at the welfare system. What can we do to help them become better future citizens, cause right now what is going on is not working. parents need to be held an accountable for abuse or neglect more than they are. What I see everyday at school makes me irate. I mean they just keep having them and collecting a check. Personally, one of the things I would do is forced IUDs on some people after so many kids they choose not to take care of. Life IS sacred, especially after being born. I want something to facilitate a support system for these kids because , I’ll say it again, we need LESS of what we are seeing out of the youth of today because of their upbringing because most of us have brought up decent kids that have to live in society with them long after we are gone. And I applaud the ones who push through their adversity but if we can help more of them, I want to hear ideas.
I pointed out that the vast majority on this board just call women whores and sluts and evert other name in the book and it’s funny how those don’t get directed at the man nearly as much, who can just as easily slap on a condom. One even said he liked your post because you didn’t go after men.
And I will fully acknowledge that men have no say, so let’s talk it out in a civilized way.. not sure how me choosing life in an unexpected pregnancy was grounds for the personal attacks. It’s hypocrisy
This post was edited on 9/2/24 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:34 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Why are you making excuses for the irresponsible behavior of men while vilifying the women these irresponsible men get pregnant?
I see we're to the portion of the program where you simply start lying.
quote:
I wanted to see what bs excuse for men you would come up with.
If that's not the reason, then what is the reason?
quote:
Man chooses to engage in the ONLY activity that could result in pregnancy and now he’s “forced at the point of a gun” to deal with the consequences of his actions? Why are men too stupid to know where babies come from? Is that your defense here?
Here's what you are not intelligent enough to process.
I'll say it for—what?—the 4th time now?...men are just as stupid as women in this equation. I don't know if anyone else on this thread has argued otherwise, but I have not. However, men are currently held accountable for their end of the stupidity to the limit of anybody's ability to do so. Women currently are not.
So you can emote about this all you want, stamp your little irrational woman foot and get pissed off because some people (not me) call women sluts, but it doesn't change anything I have said and it doesn't make any of it invalid.
quote:
That men can’t possibly know that sex leads to pregnancy so we should absolve them if responsibility for their actions while women shoulder all of the responsibility because… men are idiots? I just want to make sure I’m understanding your point.
You're not the least bit interested in understanding my point. All you want to do is lie and claim that I have advocated for "absolving" men from responsibility.
What you're angry about is that right now reality is the opposite of what you claim. MEN are the party in the equation who are currently held accountable while WOMEN can choose not to be. That's a fact, and any claim to the contrary is simply an obvious lie.
You just don't like it because in your world women are entitled to even MORE special treatment than they already get.
quote:
Men don’t have to have sex. Men can get vasectomies. Men don’t have to ejaculate inside of vaginas. Men have plenty of choices. You just don’t want to have to deny yourself of any of your whims.
Are you really this stupid, or are you really this dishonest? Which is it?
I was clearly referring to what happens AFTER THE PREGNANCY OCCURS.
Up to the point of pregnancy men and women are on equal footing. They are equally responsible for the pregnancy occurring. Which I have already said at least 5 times now.
AFTER the pregnancy, women currently have a choice that men do not have about parenting the child that they both created.
AFTER the pregnancy women are given the choice of transferring their responsibility for parenting to the child and making them pay for their lack of willingness to be responsible with their lives.
Men can't do that. Even in a situation in which the woman wants to kill the child but the man says, "Hey, no, don't do that, I'll take care of her, you can sign away all parental rights and you'll have no responsibility," the man can't choose to do that.
No matter how irrational woman-angry you get, you can't get away from that fact.
And I'll go ahead and save you the trouble. If your posts are representative of the quality of "thought" that most women (which is what the thread claims) apply to this issue, then sure, I'll raise my hand and you can classify me as a misogynist. Y'all are logical toddlers if this is what most women "think." So no need to spend any significant amount of energy on that ad hom, I'll go ahead and cop to it.
Back to the discussion—regardless of how much you want to mischaracterize what is being said—we're not talking about how the pregnancy happened—you can frame that any way you want.
We're talking about what happens now that the woman is pregnant. Woman have all the choice and all the power in that situation. Men have none.
quote:
Their choice is made before conception.
We're talking about the choices that exist AFTER conception. Women have them. Men do not.
Sure, if men want to avoid that situation they should avoid vaginal sex, just like if women want to avoid pregnancy they should also avoid vaginal sex. But the discussion is about abortion, which is a question about what choices should exist after a pregnancy occurs.
quote:
Or we can hold men responsible for their actions, just as women are.
This is what you refuse to answer. Hold them accountable by doing what? How are they not already held accountable? WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WANT TO SEE HAPPEN with regard to this line that you keep repeating?
quote:
If you are arguing that men legitimately don’t know where babies come from and therefore can’t be held responsible for having sex that results in pregnancy, shouldn’t you be advocating for an education campaign to teach this country full of ignorant men basic biology?
If you don't know what I am arguing by this point then you lack the intelligence to understand what I'm arguing (which may in fact be the case). You at least should be able to see that is isn't what you keep claiming I'm arguing, which brings me back to the dishonesty you always revert to past a certain point when you're losing.
quote:
It’s society’s job
(Says its society's job as though that communicates some significant difference, then lists a bunch of governmental actions as examples of what she's talking about).
Yeah, I know what you are claiming. But yet again, you didn't make a case for why. All you did was repeat your claim. And it's an "ought" claim. Ought claims require justification.
You think someone other than the individuals involved owe the individuals intervention to enable them to more easily procreate.
That obligation is not self evident to me. In order for me to accept it as being valid, you'll have to justify it. Why is that someone else's obligation? I'll wait for the answer.
In the meantime, I'll tell you exactly why I think that's a horrible idea. We are where we are currently in society—and particularly within the black community—in largest part because of two things. One of those things is the involvement of the government beginning in the mid 1960s in subsidizing women having children.
See, your idea has already been tried. And the results are abysmal. Now upwards of 70% of black children are born to single mothers. We all know the outcomes research on children without fathers in the home (although I can post it again if you'd like) and we know how awful they are. Government subsidies have incentivized women to reproduce without being married. It's not the only factor that has destroyed the nuclear family, the other major factor being feminism.
quote:
if you don’t see the value in Americans reproducing.
Speaking of feminism, that's the main reason Americans aren't reproducing. Americans reproduced at much higher rates when economic opportunities weren't nearly as good as they are now and when there were few to no government subsidies available. So that argument is obviously false.
This post was edited on 9/2/24 at 12:08 pm
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:35 am to UtahCajun
You weren’t as bad as others, but my reason for sharing is because most here thinks it’s so easy to get child support, they have it all figured out. I wanted to share a different experience and other ones that show how the system is gamed A LOT…by BOTH women and men. To the detriment of the child. And in true poli board form, it just became personal insults.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 1:20 pm to Azkiger
Youtube Abolitionists Rising channel.
They are good at lobbying for unborn children.
They are good at lobbying for unborn children.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 1:27 pm to 4cubbies
We need more kids with stable, healthy families and I’m willing to use tax dollars to promote that
We shouldn’t subsidize irresponsible people having lots of kids out of wedlock
We shouldn’t subsidize irresponsible people having lots of kids out of wedlock
Posted on 9/2/24 at 1:32 pm to Pettifogger
THIS! Can we expand on this discussion?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:19 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
We need more kids with stable, healthy families and I’m willing to use tax dollars to promote that
We shouldn’t subsidize irresponsible people having lots of kids out of wedlock
Everyone would be better off of every child was born to a stable family. But it’s not the child’s fault they were born to shitty parents. The child deserves to be supported especially if his/her parents can’t or won’t be responsible parents.
Trust me, I would love daycare subsidies as a married mother, but my kids have two parents who love and support them and make them feel safe. The kids who are basically raising themselves need much more support from the community/state than kids from stable homes.
It’s hard to reward good parenting without punishing innocent kids who happened to lose the parent lottery.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:25 pm to 4cubbies
hey,, good to see you
so i definitely lost the parent lottery as you put it
both birth and adoption, my birth story has been told and you can trust me on the rest
I want to make sure I understand you so I won't assume,, I'll ask
are you saying because my birth situation was not tenable and my adopted family was not healthy by any metric
are you saying my life does not matter and should have been forfeited in the womb?
so i definitely lost the parent lottery as you put it
both birth and adoption, my birth story has been told and you can trust me on the rest
I want to make sure I understand you so I won't assume,, I'll ask
are you saying because my birth situation was not tenable and my adopted family was not healthy by any metric
are you saying my life does not matter and should have been forfeited in the womb?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:41 pm to OWLFAN86
I’m actually not referring to a specific situation. I just read your post about your conception and I don’t believe a life is less valuable if it was conceived from a rape. You didn’t rape anyone, so why would exterminating your innocent life be justified?
I do have tremendous empathy for your mother and all victims of rape. I cannot imagine conceiving a child from such a traumatic and horrific act. Despite my own beliefs, I also understand that judging women who are in these impossibly difficult situations isn’t helpful. I advocate for support rather than abortions. Society needs to support pregnant women, not vilify them.
My last post in this thread was in response to someone saying that society should support stable families, not single parenthood. I took that to mean society shouldn’t provide food stamps or other subsidies for children born to deadbeats.
I do have tremendous empathy for your mother and all victims of rape. I cannot imagine conceiving a child from such a traumatic and horrific act. Despite my own beliefs, I also understand that judging women who are in these impossibly difficult situations isn’t helpful. I advocate for support rather than abortions. Society needs to support pregnant women, not vilify them.
My last post in this thread was in response to someone saying that society should support stable families, not single parenthood. I took that to mean society shouldn’t provide food stamps or other subsidies for children born to deadbeats.
This post was edited on 9/2/24 at 8:44 pm
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:43 pm to 4cubbies
thank you forgive me for over-emphasising your post that I replied to
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:46 pm to OWLFAN86
It’s all good. I admire your vulnerability in your other post. Thanks for sharing that.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:53 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
The kids who are basically raising themselves need much more support from the community/state than kids from stable homes.
Those kids are raising themselves in the first place BECAUSE of the subsidies that their mothers receive from the state.
How do you not see this?
It's like Trump with his trade tariffs. The outcomes were quite predictable and they have turned out exactly as predicted. And he's doubling down and promising to increase them if elected again.
Stick your hand in the oven and it gets burned and the conclusion is that you got burned because you didn't stick it in far enough and revolve to stick it in farther the next time?
Why?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 8:57 pm to wackatimesthree
The kids should be punished for the sins of their parents, right?
Isn’t that exactly what abortion is? And you’re against that, correct?
Isn’t that exactly what abortion is? And you’re against that, correct?
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:00 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
need much more support from the community/state than kids from stable homes.
I won't disagree with this... but define support first.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:00 pm to 4cubbies
forgive
Abortion after a rape would be making the child suffer for the sins of the father
But abortion when used as birth control would be making the child suffer for the sins of both the mother and the father
But God forgives sin when we repent
so there's no need for an abortion when the pregnancy is the result of unprotected out-of-marriage sex that the mother and the father both willingly engaged in
Because an important part of asking God's forgiveness for our sin is accepting the consequences of that sin and not asking to be excused from the consequences
“Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
while Christ protected her from the human/worlds condemnation, he also instructed her to end her sinning
Abortion after a rape would be making the child suffer for the sins of the father
But abortion when used as birth control would be making the child suffer for the sins of both the mother and the father
But God forgives sin when we repent
so there's no need for an abortion when the pregnancy is the result of unprotected out-of-marriage sex that the mother and the father both willingly engaged in
Because an important part of asking God's forgiveness for our sin is accepting the consequences of that sin and not asking to be excused from the consequences
“Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
while Christ protected her from the human/worlds condemnation, he also instructed her to end her sinning
This post was edited on 9/2/24 at 9:06 pm
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:04 pm to OWLFAN86
Yes, but I presume the poster I replied to was referring to live babies and kids outside of the womb. Advocating for eliminating social support for those kids in the way food stamps and whatever else would be punishing them because they were born to dead beat parents.
Posted on 9/2/24 at 9:08 pm to 4cubbies
Was he advocating for the elimination or down sizing of those programs or pointing out that those programs actually encourage single motherhood and the destruction of the family
It's a very important distinction don't you think?
It's a very important distinction don't you think?
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