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Started By
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re: All the talk on Roe V. Wade
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:58 pm to Dale51
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:58 pm to Dale51
quote:The latter question is easy. “Society.”
what...in your mind..do you find to be determinative in the vesting of rights? Who is doing the "vesting" in your mind?
As to the former question, development toward sentience.
0
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:59 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
I see no reason why any "abortion" that was simply an ejection/disconnection from the mother would be an issue. Are you willing to make that concession?
I don't agree that it has to be strictly defined as a positive or negative right. What about a mother's responsibility to her born child?
If she neglects to feed it, and the child dies, then she's surely guilty of some crime (i'll refrain from guessing which one this time
) To your question, if the fetus was ejected/disconnected from the mother then this would be a violation of the negative right to life...unless this somehow happened as the result of some medical condition the mother had no control over, in which case it's a miscarriage, and I don't consider miscarriage to be a crime (I would hope that would go without saying, but you never know...)
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:02 pm to BamaGradinTn
quote:See, this is just too stupid for words. Sure, a TINY share of Pro-Choice folks may have this view, but the VAST majority support some limits beyond this.
Dems and progressives see nothing wrong with abortion on demand until the head pops out, let's start with the easy stuff:
If we are just going to toss red herrings at one another, there is no point in this discussion.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:03 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
So, you oppose the “morning after” pill,
yes
quote:
I am guessing that you see humanity (with its 23 chromosome pairs) as being unique and special.
with regards to the law, yes.
quote:
I see those rights vesting as it develops the ability to engage in abstract thought and accumulates those experiences which make it “sentient.”
I find this position strikingly similar to the justifications used to enact slavery and, at the risk of Godwin's law, the holocaust.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:05 pm to beerJeep
I think people should mind their own business. Don’t like abortion? Then don’t get one, worry about yourself.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:06 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Joshjrn
I have to run, which is a shame since we're getting to the good stuff, but I appreciate the thoughtful discourse.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:08 pm to Pere_bear
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:08 pm to beerJeep
quote:Go Away. We are discussing another issue here. Stop stalking like a sulky teenager.
How. Do. You. Feel. About. American. Intervention. In. Other. Countries. Political. Affairs.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:09 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
Yes, you KNOW what the TRUTH is....don't let pride blind you to it.
Cool, glad to hear that you're conceding that I'm right
quote:
You were a fetus once, when you were, were you not a person?
It's my personal opinion that I wasn't, but ultimately, my purpose here isn't to convince everyone of that. My purpose, as you can see from the thread I linked earlier, is to change the debate. As long as we are debating personhood, I actually don't care all that much where people fall on the spectrum. At least for now; I'm sure I'll get there eventually
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:10 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:I cannot speak for Josh, but I was not yet a person at that point and neither were you.
You were a fetus once, when you were, were you not a person?
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:11 pm to AggieHank86
No one asked you, hank hill. Go clean some propane tanks
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:15 pm to CptRusty
quote:
I don't agree that it has to be strictly defined as a positive or negative right. What about a mother's responsibility to her born child?
If she neglects to feed it, and the child dies, then she's surely guilty of some crime (i'll refrain from guessing which one this time )
To your question, if the fetus was ejected/disconnected from the mother then this would be a violation of the negative right to life...unless this somehow happened as the result of some medical condition the mother had no control over, in which case it's a miscarriage, and I don't consider miscarriage to be a crime (I would hope that would go without saying, but you never know...)
To be clear, positive and negative rights are defined as follows, at least to my understanding:
A negative right is a right that should not be actively infringed. A positive right is a right that must be provided. So, if you have a negative right to life, I violate that right by shooting you in the head. If you have a positive right to life, I violate that right if I don't provide you food, water, healthcare, shelter, etc, etc, etc.
Within that paradigm, refusing to feed a child might violate a positive right to life, but not a negative one. This very interestingly dovetails with the mostly separate debate of a positive right to life as it pertains to healthcare, the ACA, etc. But that's for another day
As for the discussion of responsibility, that's where things get really interesting. We've rather arbitrarily decided that the unborn have, at best, a negative right to life. From birth through the age of 17, children have a positive right to life. From 18 onward, we return to a negative right to life. Except that in some states, we've established a return to a positive right to life as it pertains to children and their elderly parents.
It's all very messy and rather arbitrary, but that's where we are
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:16 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
I cannot speak for Josh, but I.was not yet a person at that point and neither were you.
So you won't speak for Josh, but you will speak for me?
Speak for yourself, I was a person at the moment of conception....otherwise, I wouldn't exist.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:16 pm to WeBleedCrimson
quote:
I think people should mind their own business. Don’t like abortion? Then don’t get one, worry about yourself.
A-fricking-men. Couldn't be anymore simpler. frick off pro-lifers. Have a baby yourself if you want one so bad.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:17 pm to beerJeep
quote:And no one asked you to drag an unrelated debate onto this thread. Grow up.
No one asked you, hank hill. Go clean some propane tanks
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:18 pm to Dale51
quote:
What of it?? Are you claiming that reckless or negligent behaviors, that result in the death of another living being, should have zero consequences?
i'm saying that miscarriages aren't murder or manslaughter for the same reason that abortions aren't.
because it's not a person and it doesn't have rights.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:18 pm to Ole Messcort
quote:It also doesn't affect me personally if someone decides to drown their newborns or toddlers but I believe the practice is evil and should be outlawed and thankfully it is. The same should be said for abortion on demand.
A-fricking-men. Couldn't be anymore simpler. frick off pro-lifers. Have a baby yourself if you want one so bad.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:21 pm to CptRusty
quote:
I have to run, which is a shame since we're getting to the good stuff, but I appreciate the thoughtful discourse.
Same to you. Feel free to jump back in later. In fact, I'll bookmark this post and check back in the next day or so to see if you've posted any new replies
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:22 pm to Ole Messcort
Same for you. Mind your own business.
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:23 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
And no one asked you to drag an unrelated debate onto this thread.
People shouldn’t start threads and then abandon them.
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