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Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:29 pm to DawgsLife
quote:quote:
There may not necessarily be anything illegal with the DNC throwing their support to Hillary. The DNC is a private organization. They are not a part of the government in and of itself. So if the DNC does try to pick their candidate to support and put their money behind, as a private organization, they are free to do so.
Then why would it be wrong for Russia to do the same thing? I mean, Russia is a private organization.
If they choose to throw their support behind a single candidate what is the harm?
(Of course both scenarios are silly)
What is wrong? They are influencing elections. The DNC is supposed to represent their party. By doing what they did, they undermined the integrity of the election process. Again...if they are going to pick and choose who the Democrats are going to run for President, why have a primary? just allow them to say who the Democrats are going to run.
Because Russia isn't influencing it's own internal election. The DNC did. That is the difference.
There is also a difference between an internal organization's election and the general presidential election.
Now I grant you that the DNC and RNC elections which technically private organizations are effectively arms of the government because our FTPTP election system always ends in a 2 party system, but legally they aren't part of the government.
Also, the DNC did represent their party. The internal DNC wanted Hillary. The power brokers are the party. They don't see the voters who join at election time who aren't involved in workings of the DNC as part of the party.
They have a primary to hopefully find who they think will get the most votes and they want to give the illusion of choice to the voters to drum up more votes
quote:
quote:
[quote]However, if Trump and Russia have colluded (which has not yet been proven) they would have been interfering with a national election which is part of the official government which would be illegal.
If you are holding primaries and you do not allow them to be fair, you are interfering with a National Election, too. If things are run fairly, then bernie Sanders might have won the Democratic nomination and HE might have been President of the United States.....so yes, by the DNC interference and swaying the way the primaries were run, they also interfered with the national Election.
Technically interfering with the DNC and RNC primaries isn't interfering with a national election. The primaries are simply elaborate ways of picking who you want for the national election, but are not at all part of the national election itself. The DNC and RNC can pick whomever they want to run for president even if the primaries say otherwise; they wouldn't never do this because of public outrage and they would lose votes, but they aren't legally bound to do so.
Also another example of why it's not illegal to tamper with DNC and RNC races ... it is not illegal for a Repub (at heart) to sign up as a Dem and vote in their primary and vice versa.
I don't agree with it. I think it's wrong. But it isn't illegal.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:31 pm to antibarner
If releasing factual authentic emails from a candidate's team leader is "interference"...the I'm absolutely for more interference from foreign sources.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:32 pm to ctalati32
quote:
Manipulating the DNC is undeomcratic and despicable but not necessarily illegal.
Electoral fraud, election manipulation, or vote rigging is illegal interference with the process of an election. Acts of fraud affect vote counts to bring about an election result, whether by increasing the vote share of the favored candidate, depressing the vote share of the rival candidates, or both. What constitutes electoral fraud under law varies from country to country.
What they did was election manipulation, was it not?
Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:34 pm to DawgsLife
quote:quote:
True but I don't think that means they have to have free and open election of their delegate. If that were the case they couldn't have super-delegates and would have to have open primaries.
Yes. They do. You are assuming that the Primaries and the National Election are separate. they are both parts of the election process.
Here is a link explaining the election laws.
LINK /
But the primaries are an integral part of the overall election process,and are looked at just as stringently as the regular National Election.
All election laws aside, I would think fraud would come into play. You are telling the constituency that they have a voice in who their candidate is going to be, when in fact, they do not, because the decision has already been made. can you imagine the backlash if people took a day off from work to vote and then found out the outcome had already been decided? i would think Democrats everywhere would be outraged.
My opinion? This had as much if not more to do with Hillary's defeat than anything else. (That and the fact that she is just a nasty individual)
Thanks for the link. This is why I like to debate this stuff because you can learn something new.
I will have to read this more in depth later, but in my quick skim over it they do state that not all of the same election provisions for the general election apply to the primaries unless it's explicitly stated that it applies to the primaries.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:47 pm to ctalati32
quote:
This is why I like to debate this stuff because you can learn something new.
Same here! Every once in awhile, when you find somebody that will have a sane and honest conversation, you can learn stuff. I have changed my opinion on some things from time to time.
Most people on here...if you were to meet them in real life would turn out to be very nice, level headed people. For some reason, when we get on an anonymous board we lose all reason! Myself included!
I've enjoyed the conversation. if you find that i am wrong, let me know. If proven wrong, I have no problem with admitting it. However, pack a lunch and bring facts, because I don't convince easily!
Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:53 pm to antibarner
quote:
"the Russians hacked our election"
Can you show all the numerous articles that state this? Or clips of various reporters stating this?
If you can find all of those press lies from the NYT, WaPo and CNN I'd appreciate it. Because as far as I am concerned you are the liar. The press does not keep saying these things. You are full of shite, the press isn't saying "the Russians hacked our election"
But awesome straw man.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 12:57 pm to ctalati32
quote:
No doubt, but I don't think it's illegal
Sadly you're correct. While incredibly unethical political parties can indeed manipulate their own primaries.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the legal definition of Treason expanded to cover party primaries for federal office.
quote:
I don't think you can make that leap in logic saying there's no "reason to believe".
I disagree, especially when part of that unethical activity involved things like feeding a candidate debate questions ahead of time. At most they may not have done it this time but the longer they are allowed to go along doing something like that with no repercussions, the more likely they are to extend those unethical behaviors. It's human nature.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 1:03 pm to fouldeliverer
quote:
Can you show all the numerous articles that state this? Or clips of various reporters stating this?
The Business Insider apparently asked Putin about it:
LINK
Here is CNN:
LINK
(By the way, Obama said the US would retaliate at Russian attempts to hack our election...he said this in the article.
Here is one from NBC news
LINK
The New York Times:
LINK
CBS News
LINK
Forbes
LINK
There are others. I'm glad you can now rest easy that antibarner is not a liar and that you are mistaken. I'm sure an apology to antibarner is forthcoming, right? No, I didn't think so.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 1:11 pm to fouldeliverer
Posted on 3/30/17 at 1:19 pm to antibarner
quote:We didn't.
how the Russians interfered in our election?
I mean, they didn't....
Posted on 3/30/17 at 1:21 pm to DawgsLife
quote:
DawgsLife
Good god. There is a difference between Russian Hackers interfered with the election and "the Russians hacked our election" as the OP stated.
Wording the way he did implies that they hacked the actual election process and changed votes. That isn't what they links you posted are suggesting.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 1:36 pm to Lsupimp
quote:
It's all a gigantic head fake to distract from the fact that the Obama Administration at the highest levels, conducted illegal and unethical surveillance and shared that surveillance with political and media friends. Which would all be buried as soon as Hillary was sworn in. Except
This is it. This is all of it. It's all bullshite. it's been bullshite. It's simply an attempt to justify the Obama administrations actions during the election. It's going to fall short.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 1:40 pm to antibarner
quote:There's a ton of information out there. But don't worry too much, there is undoubtedly more to come. That's why we have investigations.
Anyone care to explain how the Russians interfered in our election?
Just standby.
Posted on 3/30/17 at 2:04 pm to fouldeliverer
quote:
Good god. There is a difference between Russian Hackers interfered with the election and "the Russians hacked our election" as the OP stated.
I agree. Not sure what your point is since every single link I posted used the words Russians hacked
Did you miss that? that is what their conversation was about and those were the links I provided as requested.
quote:
Wording the way he did implies that they hacked the actual election process and changed votes. That isn't what they links you posted are suggesting.
Again.....They were arguing about the news media publishing reports in print and on the news about the Russians hacking the election. Antibarner said the news media continually reports that the election was hacked. Here is his quote:
I keep hearing the press lying with "the Russians hacked our election". That is a lie.
Here was the response he got:
Can you show all the numerous articles that state this? Or clips of various reporters stating this?
Now, you tell me....did every single on of my links say that the Russians hacked the election? Or, at the VERY LEAST insinuate that?
If you would like I can take direct quotes from the articles.
This post was edited on 3/30/17 at 2:06 pm
Posted on 3/30/17 at 2:15 pm to fouldeliverer
quote:
Good god. There is a difference between Russian Hackers interfered with the election and "the Russians hacked our election" as the OP stated.
Never mind. here are direct quotes from the articles, or the article titles:
Putin on whether Russia hacked the US election
(Note the word hacked in the title?)
President Barack Obama has vowed the US will retaliate against Russia "at a time and place of our own choosing" for Moscow's hacking attempts to influence the country's elections.
Russian hacking and the 2016 election: What you need to know
Russians Hacked Two U.S. Voter Databases, Officials Say
Russian Hackers Acted to Aid Trump in Election, U.S. Says
How Russia hacked the election
How Russia 'Hacked' Us In 2016 [And What We Did Wrong]
Now. Do I believe the Russians hacked the election? no.
But these articles clearly say hacked and that is something that is not up for debate. The media has repeatedly used the words hacked, if for no other reason, than to plant the idea in the American peoples minds that the Russians hacked the election and caused Trump to win.
Don't get mad at me if the new narrative is interfered. The media, just as antibarner claimed kept saying hacked. Deny this and your credibility goes down the drain. (Especially since I have given numerous links where the media said hacked)
By the way.....here is the last thing you said:
the press isn't saying "the Russians hacked our election"
Here is just one of the links I provided:
How Russia hacked the election
I would appreciate it if you would at least open one of my links before dismissing them.
Now, about that apology you owe antibarner for calling him a liar.
This post was edited on 3/30/17 at 2:24 pm
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