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Started By
Message
re: Arkansas' new Ten Commandments monument at Capitol destroyed
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:06 pm to DawgfaninCa
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:06 pm to DawgfaninCa
quote:
As a result, someone who believes there is no "God" and belittles someone who believes "God" created life is just a fricking hypocrite.
I agree with you.
1
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:09 pm to MastrShake
quote:The New Testament letters, specifically, are the eye-witness testimony I was referring to. The authors of those letters were killed for their beliefs, and like I said, no one dies for a lie that they know is a lie, much less several people over many years.
like what?
ive asked you over and over again for examples, why do you keep responding with these general statements.
quote:He must've been a pretty crappy historian, then, by not checking his facts and using simple hearsay even though he could've easily validated those accounts, seeing that he was alive during the same time the miracles by the apostles and disciples of Jesus were taking place and while many, if not most, of those witnesses were still alive and kicking.
he wrote about stories he heard about jesus. it was something he heard from someone. this isnt even proof that jesus actually existed, much less performed any miracles.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:13 pm to MastrShake
quote:
There's also the Jewish (no love for Christians) historian Josephus that wrote of Jesus and His mighty works.
quote:
he wrote about stories he heard about jesus. it was something he heard from someone. this isnt even proof that jesus actually existed, much less performed any miracles.
You are just a doubting Thomas.
Just because you won't believe something is true until you see it with your own eyes, that doesn't mean it is not true.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:14 pm to olddawg26
quote:oh yeah, i agree, there are enough records to reasonably assume he was at least a real person. that doesnt mean he was a god.
Pretty sure Jesus existed
every miracle he's said to perform was already performed by other gods in other mythology well known to these people at this time. from start to finish, his entire bio is just a copy-paste mash-up from other stories.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:17 pm to MastrShake
quote:What records are you referring to and why do you accept those testimonies as facts and not false hearsay, like the Bible?
oh yeah, i agree, there are enough records to reasonably assume he was at least a real person. that doesnt mean he was a god.
quote:False. Those claims of Osirus are not accurate and don't even resemble the claims of Jesus. But, I'll do you one better: most of the miracles that Jesus performed were performed by the prophets in the Old Testament. So He was just borrowing from people that His audience (Jews) were already familiar with.
every miracle he's said to perform was already performed by other gods in other mythology well known to these people at this time. from start to finish, his entire bio is just a copy-paste mash-up from other stories.
ETA: The other cultural miracle stories are not the same, either, but even if they were, that is meaningless to the truth of whether or not Jesus performed those things. There were hundreds and thousands of supposed eye-witnesses for the various miracles, as well.
This post was edited on 6/28/17 at 6:20 pm
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:18 pm to olddawg26
quote:
As a result, someone who believes there is no "God" and belittles someone who believes "God" created life is just a fricking hypocrite.
quote:
I agree with you.
I knew we would eventually agree on something besides both of us being fans of the Dawgs.
This post was edited on 6/28/17 at 6:24 pm
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:21 pm to DawgfaninCa
quote:that "someone" could be described several ways, but hypocrite isn't one of them.
As a result, someone who believes there is no "God" and belittles someone who believes "God" created life is just a fricking hypocrite
you might want to look up the word "hypocrisy".
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:28 pm to DawgfaninCa
Never here to negatively debate. Regardless of my stance I'm usually more aligned with you than you think. I'm a huuuge devils advocate
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:38 pm to MastrShake
When someone thinks someone else is ignorant, stupid or wrong for believing in something without any factual evidence yet they think they are more educated than that person, intellectually superior to that person and right about their own belief which is based on no factual evidence then that person is a hypocrite.
quote:
Definition of hypocrite for Students
: a person who acts in a way that goes against what he or she claims to believe or feel
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:you honestly dont understand the difference between belief and a fact, do you?
What records are you referring to and why do you accept those testimonies as facts and not false hearsay, like the Bible?
i said its safe to "reasonably assume he was at least a real person".
i did not say that I "accept those testimonies as facts".
quote:name any miracle about him and its easy to find other examples of the same thing.
False.
quote:
most of the miracles that Jesus performed were performed by the prophets in the Old Testament.
which you are apparently now admitting.
quote:wait one fricking second.
So He was just borrowing from people that His audience (Jews) were already familiar with.
stop everything.
so if jesus had done a new miracle, like fly, his audience would just shrug it off because they weren't familiar with that one.
if he split a boulder with a lightning bolt, that wouldnt prove he was the son of god to them?
copying other miracles they had already heard about was the only way to get their attention?
is that seriously how deep your willing to go into this hole of delusion? do you not hear yourself?
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:46 pm to olddawg26
quote:
Never here to negatively debate.
Neither am I.
quote:
Regardless of my stance I'm usually more aligned with you than you think.
Unlike what some posters here try to make me out to be, I listen to both sides and will change my position if someone presents valid counterpoints to my points.
quote:
I'm a huuuge devils advocate
Being a devil's advocate makes both sides of a debate have to come up with valid points and present evidence that support their position.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 6:52 pm to FooManChoo
quote:oh and as far as this part, i dont remember, it was something i read in "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography", by Dominic Crossan, a former priest and Theology professor for 26 years at DePaul.
What records are you referring to
not that i know anything about christianity, of course.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 7:33 pm to MastrShake
quote:
wait one fricking second.
stop everything.
so if jesus had done a new miracle, like fly, his audience would just shrug it off because they weren't familiar with that one.
if he split a boulder with a lightning bolt, that wouldnt prove he was the son of god to them?
copying other miracles they had already heard about was the only way to get their attention?
is that seriously how deep your willing to go into this hole of delusion? do you not hear yourself?
You're moving the goalposts. First you claimed that Jesus repeated past miracles...and he correctly pointed out in those cases, they were repeats of Old Testament miracles. The point being that they ultimately came from the same God.
Then you moved the goalposts and claimed (incorrectly) that Jesus didn't perform new miracles as well.
So, maybe you should answer your own question:
is that seriously how deep your (sic) willing to go into this hole of delusion? do you not hear yourself?
Posted on 6/28/17 at 7:42 pm to DawgfaninCa
quote:
You are just a doubting Thomas. Just because you won't believe something is true until you see it with your own eyes, that doesn't mean it is not true.
That reminds me of this every time I see the term..
Posted on 6/28/17 at 7:48 pm to MastrShake
quote:
MastrShake
How long have you felt a longing for god?
You find yourself drawn to these conversation for a reason, ya know?
Posted on 6/28/17 at 8:05 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:such as what?
Then you moved the goalposts and claimed (incorrectly) that Jesus didn't perform new miracles as well.
edit:
quote:i can see your point of view on this, btw. if nothing else i didnt explain it well. i was referring to the "repeated" miracles and didnt take the "new" miracles into account when i made that post, so yes, you got me on that. which is why im asking about the "new" miracles.
You're moving the goalposts. First you claimed that Jesus repeated past miracles...and he correctly pointed out in those cases, they were repeats of Old Testament miracles ... Then you moved the goalposts and claimed (incorrectly) that Jesus didn't perform new miracles as well.
This post was edited on 6/28/17 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 6/28/17 at 8:06 pm to DawgfaninCa
Even if you're against the monument surely you can't support a maniac taking the law into his own hands.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 9:31 pm to MastrShake
quote:OK, let me rephrase. Why do you think it's safe to assume Jesus was a real person? Wouldn't you say the historical testimonial evidence provides sufficient justification for such a belief?
you honestly dont understand the difference between belief and a fact, do you?
i said its safe to "reasonably assume he was at least a real person".
i did not say that I "accept those testimonies as facts".
quote:How about the transfiguration?
name any miracle about him and its easy to find other examples of the same thing.
quote:Many, yes. My point was not the specific miracles Jesus performed but that He performed any at all, many of which were done previously. Jesus' miracles didn't need to be unique because it wasn't some contest to see who could do the best miracles. His miracles were performed to prove that He was the Son of God and that His message was from God. The miracles in the OT were done to prove the message of the prophets are from God, too. That's their function.
which you are apparently now admitting.
quote:I honestly don't know how you got all of that from my statement. All I was saying was that Jesus' miracles didn't have to be unique, which is what you seemed to be using as a reason to not believe in the miracles of Jesus. Miracles are works of the supernatural which cannot be performed by mere mortals without the power of God (who is supernatural). The Jews were like everyone else: they recognized the power of God when they saw it, and it didn't matter if the miracle performed had been done before or not.
so if jesus had done a new miracle, like fly, his audience would just shrug it off because they weren't familiar with that one.
if he split a boulder with a lightning bolt, that wouldnt prove he was the son of god to them?
copying other miracles they had already heard about was the only way to get their attention?
is that seriously how deep your willing to go into this hole of delusion? do you not hear yourself?
Posted on 6/28/17 at 9:45 pm to MastrShake
quote:I hadn't heard of that book so I checked out several reviews.
oh and as far as this part, i dont remember, it was something i read in "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography", by Dominic Crossan, a former priest and Theology professor for 26 years at DePaul.
Sounds like this guy uses a lot of early texts(including ones that have been discarded by Protestants and the early church as being non-canonical) as the source of the information about Jesus but then strips away all supernatural attestations to come up with a fictitious view of Jesus as a mortal man who just didn't like the constructs of society as he saw it in his day. Accepting the texts and then arbitrarily dismissing that which doesn't conform to what he already believes sounds like a great basis for understanding the Jesus of the Bible.
Regardless, my point is that historians generally accept Jesus as a real person based on the same evidence Christians do. They just reject those pieces of the evidence about Christ that don't fit their worldviews, such as the miracles.
quote:I'm sure you know quite a lot about Christianity. You are just blind to the truth of it.
not that i know anything about christianity, of course.
Posted on 6/28/17 at 10:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
discarded by Protestants and the early church
Another sweet convenience.
It's easy to make your bullshite seem true when you just make it up as you go, and tack a god to it.
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