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Message
re: Bill Nye Smears Ken Ham
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:20 pm to rcocke2
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:20 pm to rcocke2
quote:
From the skeptic point-of-view, it makes more sense to believe in God because there is no penalty for being wrong while the payoff for being correct is huge.
This is Pascal's wager and it is a fallacy. It assumes there is only one god from which to choose from when in fact there are thousands.
If a Christian says to me "I lose nothing by believing, but you risk everything by not doing so" my response is which God do I place my hope in?
If Christians are wrong and Islam is right, Christians are going to hell. They absolutely "lose" by believing in Yahweh. The inverse is also true and Muslims lose by believing in Allah.
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, it isn't just about believing in God but believing in the right one with the exact set of parameters he has set out.
Finally, the wager sits on the assumption that one can merely "choose" to believe. Belief is not a concious choice, you either believe something or you don't. It is physically impossible for me with my current knowledge base to believe in the Christian narrative.
3
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:22 pm to rcocke2
quote:
Apparently to you. Might want to look in to it. It is actually a highly sophisticated argument.
It actually isn't, it fails to consider multiple real world parameters and is demonstrably illogical.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:22 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:DING DING DING. And THAT is why Pascal's wager is idiocy. If I could "choose" to believe, If fricking WOULD because it goddamned beats the alternative.
Finally, the wager sits on the assumption that one can merely "choose" to believe
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:25 pm to TK421
quote:
I think you might be overstating this a wee bit.
Not really.
Quantum mechanics has shown us the the act of watching something occur actually changes the outcome. It's called the observer effect and we have no clue why it happens, but nevertheless it is an experimentally repeatable phenomenon whereby an event will have the exact same outcome every single time it occurs until it is observed by someone or something.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:27 pm to SettleDown
quote:
Nope. There is nothing sophisticated about believing "just in case" because any real God wouldn't be fooled. If you REALLY believe, then you don't need the "just in case" part because you REALLY believe.
You still do not get it. People mistake the unobserved for the non-existent all the time. Also, belief means to 'trust', in the face of uncertainty or lack of evidence, to go along with the story through trust. My point is that from a technical view, Bill Nye also has a massive 'lack of evidence' for non-existence. But I'm going to trust what my Grandmother and her Grandmother believed in the face of 'not-knowing' or the 'unknown'. Bill Nye and the media would like us to replace our religion with their religion of science. I've been an engineer for too long to fall for this crap from Nye
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:27 pm to SettleDown
quote:
If fricking WOULD because it goddamned beats the alternative.
Does it?
Christians live their entire live believing that the majority of people who will ever live will ultimately burn in hell for all eternity, including very likely some of their friends and relatives. I do not enjoy that concept.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:29 pm to rcocke2
quote:
Also, belief means to 'trust', in the face of uncertainty or lack of evidence, to go along with the story through trust
So God prefers willful ignorance over critical thinking?
You do realize that the scenario you've proposed, if set up by God, inherently dooms many of the greatest minds in history who through critical thinking and logic could not maintain belief in God right?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:31 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Finally, the wager sits on the assumption that one can merely "choose" to believe. Belief is not a concious choice, you either believe something or you don't. It is physically impossible for me with my current knowledge base to believe in the Christian narrative.
Wise...but incomplete.
The choice to believe is relative to the AVAILABLE INFORMATION upon which belief (or nonbelief) is adjudged. If one desires to shoot a good game of pool (of the which I am about to endeavor to do) and BELIEVE that one can...the one simply works to gain the Knowledge required to perform, and believe.
It's all about Truth and Power. The Good Book says as much: "In the beginning, was THE WORD...and the word was with God, and the Word was God".
Happy hunting, RK.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:33 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Quantum mechanics has shown us the the act of watching something occur actually changes the outcome. It's called the observer effect and we have no clue why it happens, but nevertheless it is an experimentally repeatable phenomenon whereby an event will have the exact same outcome every single time it occurs until it is observed by someone or something.
Roger, I passed both QM I and QM II. You don't need to explain the Heisenberg Uncertainty Princple to explain the supposed absurdity of a philosophical argument for God.
Please explain, because this princple of QM is rooted in inequalities (asymmetries)just like the argument employed by Pascal.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:33 pm to catholictigerfan
Catholic... I always enjoy reading your views...
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:34 pm to rcocke2
quote:In fairness to Nye, I don't believe he overstepped in the OP. OTOH, Ham did.
But Bill Nye and his super-rationalist colleagues can be SURE about their ideas since they know that science is exact and can describe with certainty the world around us (Yeah right!!!)
Pretty hard to argue with a guy who can cite examples of living trees older than Ham claims the Earth is. IOW as you correctly point out, there is not certainty with all things in the world around us. Where there is certainty though, a failure to acknowledge it constitutes failure of God-given intellect.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:45 pm to rcocke2
quote:
But I'm going to trust what my Grandmother and her Grandmother believed in the face of 'not-knowing' or the 'unknown
This has to be a joke
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:46 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Not really.
As someone who's dissertation is based on quantum mechanics, I'm pretty well versed on this subject. The idea that watching something changes the outcome is incredibly misunderstood.
The means of detection or observation interferes with the process and changes the outcome. This is where the uncertainty principle comes from. You cannot know both the position and momentum of an electron because measuring one changes the other. Electrons don't know you are watching them.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:51 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:The nuance of belief is you don't get to set mine, and I don't set yours RK. If someone here believes that all members of religious sects except theirs are going to hell, then address that. Otherwise your opinion regarding all religion stands as exceedingly audacious. Perhaps that is accidental? Perhaps ill-informed.
If you believe in Heaven and Hell, it isn't just about believing in God but believing in the right one with the exact set of parameters he has set out.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:56 pm to rcocke2
quote:
But I'm going to trust what my Grandmother and her Grandmother believed in the face of 'not-knowing' or the 'unknown'
This CANNOT be real life.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 5:58 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:quote:So God prefers willful ignorance over critical thinking?
People mistake the unobserved for the non-existent all the time. Also, belief means to 'trust', in the face of uncertainty or lack of evidence, to go along with the story through trust. My point is that from a technical view, Bill Nye also has a massive 'lack of evidence' for non-existence.
If that is the case, your response to rcocke2 would qualify as quite the God-fearing post.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:01 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The nuance of belief is you don't get to set mine, and I don't set yours RK. If someone here believes that all members of religious sects except theirs are going to hell, then address that. Otherwise your opinion regarding all religion stands as exceedingly audacious. Perhaps that is accidental? Perhaps ill-informed.
You can absolutely believe whatever you want, but the discussion here involves orthodox Christianity. If one believe the bible and the words of Jesus as real and divine, and one believes 2000 years of church history, there is a very narrow and specific set of requirements for salvation.
You MUST believe there is one triune God, consisting of father, son and holy ghost.
You MUST believe Jesus is the son of God, sent to die for the sins of mankind.
You MUST believe that he rose from the grave after death.
You MUST believe what Jesus said about heaven, hell and eternity.
You MUST trust in him for your salvation, repent and seek to follow him and make him the lord of your life.
Certain groups add other things but these are the tenants that ALL Christian denominations agree upon as official doctrine. If you do NOT believe these things, then by official doctrine you are very likely damned to some form of hell after death.
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 6:01 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:08 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Certain groups add other things but these are the tenants that ALL Christian denominations agree upon as official doctrine.
This is completely false, but even if it were true every thing you listed has different meanings to different denominations.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:08 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:I'm afraid you have no idea what that is.
You can absolutely believe whatever you want, but the discussion here involves orthodox Christianity
quote:. . . and in creep the qualifiers.
then by official doctrine you are very likely damned to some form of hell after death.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:10 pm to Roger Klarvin
Lol there you go again Ag making assumptions and generalizations, but don't let a little thing like facts get in the way of your point, I know of many Christian religious orginizations that do not believe all these "Klarvin Tenets "......but keep jacking out posts, blissfully believing you are actually making a contribution to the discussion
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