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Message
re: common core continues Holocaust Hoax Assignment
Posted on 5/7/14 at 1:42 am to ChewyDante
Posted on 5/7/14 at 1:42 am to ChewyDante
quote:
Well that's still an unsubstantiated claim and a worthless thing to say, it's just not as falsifiable as the previous statement.
Hitler spot openly about exterminating the jews. This isn't foreign stuff to the Main Nazi message. They wrote letters, kept records, took pictures. They were very german about it.
1
Posted on 5/7/14 at 1:48 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
There is one correct answer in the holocaust assignment. The evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming. Just about every single talking point on the denialist side can be debunked.
This.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 2:09 am to SammyTiger
quote:
Hitler spot openly about exterminating the jews
To whom exactly are you claiming he spoke openly with and with what documentation do you support that? He was openly anti-Semitic and spoke openly about removing Jews from Germany undoubtedly but I don't recall him openly advocating the systematic killing of all Jews in Europe. Even his famous 1939 speech threatening Jews in the event of another world war was not viewed in its time as advocating genocide. Traditional thinking on this matter is quite the opposite and that the Nazis were quite interested in keeping such operations out of the public eye. In fact, there is still uncertainty surrounding exactly how and when the order was passed from Hitler on down as clearly there is no documentation of the Fuhrer order.
quote:
This isn't foreign stuff to the Main Nazi message
That doesn't mean you can just assert things to be true in spite of blatant falsifiability. The major Nuremberg defendants did not openly confess to these crimes.
quote:
They wrote letters, kept records, took pictures. They were very german about it.
None of this supports your previous comment that I took issue with nor challenges my response. I'm not arguing the occurrence of atrocities against the Jews, I'm arguing your interpretation of certain matters.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 2:28 am to ChewyDante
quote:
ChewyDante
You stated they did not at the trial. I showed you NAZIs stating that it happened at the trial. There is nothing left to say.
quote:
Ohlendorf was a prosecution witness at that trial,
He testified that he(a nazi) over saw over 90k deaths! His words.
quote:
But I'm not convinced that Ohlendorf was in any position to be familiar with the number of deaths all of these units were responsible for since he was only a party to one.
His testimony of how is in the transcript.
quote:
And since Ohlendorf gave contradictory testimony in his later trial, he himself appears to in fact be denying some of what you attribute him not to be.
He did not.
quote:
A. It is in three points. As far as the transportation conditions permitted, I convinced myself before the large executions whether measures had been taken at the place of execution, which would make possible the conditions I set down for these executions.
But, in reality, the Einsatzgruppen's task was a positive one, if I leave out this basic order for exterminations and executions.
Q. Did you exaggerate the reports which you sent to the Reich Security Main Office?
A. I certainly did not on my own initiative.
PRESIDING JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you may perhaps not agree to what I have stated, but you will have to agree to what you stated yourself on 3 January 1946; you were asked : "Do you know how many persons were liquidated by the Einsatzgruppe D under your direction?" And you answered: "In the year between June 1941 and June 1942 the Einsatzkommandos reported ninety thousand people liquidated."
DEFENDANT OHLENDORF : Yes.
PRESIDING JUDGE MUSMANNO: Question : "That included men, women, and children?" Answer: "Yes." Question: "On what do you base these figures?" Answer: "On reports sent by the Einsatzkommandos to the Einsatzgruppen." Question: "Were those reports submitted to you?" Answer: "Yes."
DEFENDANT OHLENDORF: With what was just read by the presiding judge of my affidavit of 3 January 1946 I agree completely.
PRESIDING JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes.
DEFENDANT OHLENDORF: Anything else which I have said on direct examination is merely a commentary to the testimony of 3 January 1946.
Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ?
A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern Jews, in the case of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign. These Jews were to be killed-according to the order
As you can see, he did not change his story.
quote:
And neither Hoess nor Eichmann were at Nuremberg, which I specifically mentioned. Thus they are irrelevant in response to my comment.
Not sure where you mention that at.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 2:57 am to ChewyDante
quote:
To whom exactly are you claiming he spoke openly with and with what documentation do you support that?
quote:
Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.
entry by Joseph Goebbels of December 12, 1941
quote:
Judenfrage / als Partisanen auszurotten
Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler Dec 18, 1941
Posted on 5/7/14 at 3:50 am to darkhorse
quote:
You stated they did not at the trial. I showed you NAZIs stating that it happened at the trial. There is nothing left to say.
I was referring to the defendants. I thought that was self evident given the comment I specifically quoted as to the subject of my response. Certainly you didn't interpret my comment to mean that I was somehow claiming that all Nazis present in any form at the trial denied atrocities?
quote:
He testified that he(a nazi) over saw over 90k deaths! His words.
See above comment as this has already been addressed. I've not claimed that no Nazi admitted to crimes.
quote:
His testimony of how is in the transcript.
Right, he saw some reports. Which he also says he believes to have been exaggerated.
quote:
As you can see, he did not change his story.
I don't have a link for the transcript of his testimony and haven't read through it in some time, but I did recall him contradicting himself at points.
Nonetheless, Ohlendorf really has nothing to do with my original comment anyhow.
quote:
Not sure where you mention that at.
I mentioned it in my initial comment. I specifically referred to the Nazis at Nuremberg, of which neither Eichmann nor Hoess were present.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 3:58 am to darkhorse
Speaking to Goebbels and Himmler behind closed doors is not speaking openly. Goebbels recalled conversations, and often in a very coy fashion, in his diary which he kept to himself. Himmler even addressed fellow SS men in Posen in 1943 that actions taken against the Jews were never to be spoken about.
You are simply attempting to be contrarian now.
You are simply attempting to be contrarian now.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 7:42 am to SammyTiger
quote:
This will only expose young minds to bullshite and hate.
Would you also object to a critical study of the plight of Palestinians under the Israeli occupation?
Posted on 5/7/14 at 8:00 am to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
Would you also object to a critical study of the plight of Palestinians under the Israeli occupation?
I think student should study the Isreali-Palestinian conflict. Clearly there are two sides. Something you could stand to study.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 8:22 am to CarrolltonTiger
quote:Now THAT would be a good assignment
Would you also object to a critical study of the plight of Palestinians under the Israeli occupation?
Posted on 5/7/14 at 8:31 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
The Rialto Unified School District is defending an eighth-grade assignment that asks students to debate in writing whether the Holocaust was “merely a political scheme created to influence public emotion and gain.”
What if the question was about another subject. I got it. What if the question was worded like this:
Debate in writing whether Slavery was merely a political scheme created to influence public emotion and gain.
I guarantee you with 100% certainty you would not be saying the same thing you are now. Not to mention, the school would be boycotted, Sharpton and Jackson would be out front, the President would say there is no cause for this kind of hate speech, and every media outlet would attack the question as absurd.
You know damn well what this teacher was doing with this question. There are elements of the left and white supremacists who believe the holocaust was made up. However, the left are the ones in charge of the schools. So it's ok to have questions like this.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 9:32 am to DR Hops
replace Holocaust with slavery in this "assignment" and all hell breaks loose
Posted on 5/7/14 at 9:42 am to Choctaw
quote:
replace Holocaust with slavery in this "assignment" and all hell breaks loose
Yep.
And ... just think ... perhaps 60 years from now ... we can debate whether or not two planes flew into the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 9:45 am to navy
ugh....don't get me started on Truthers.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 12:45 pm to darkhorse
quote:
it only gives legitimacy to the hateful and anti-Semitic promoters of Holocaust denial,”
Uhh, no it doesn't.
You can't give legitimacy to Holocaust denial because it has none - any student with an IQ above 80 who does sufficient research to complete the writing assignment will be even more strongly convinced that Holocaust denialist are a bunch of wackos.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 1:10 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
You can't give legitimacy to Holocaust denial because it has none - any student with an IQ above 80 who does sufficient research to complete the writing assignment will be even more strongly convinced that Holocaust denialist are a bunch of wackos.
Meh, I wouldn't lump them all together so dismissively. I've also researched the arguments of revisionism and they don't all claim the same things. Revisionists have also been shown right in some cases such as refuting claims of extermination camps within Germany itself against the eyewitness claims of many inmates, liberating soldiers, and government reports after the war.
They also argued for decades that the Katyn Massacre was perpetrated by the NKVD and not German forces which later was proven correct by the Soviet archives.
The true "denialism" they demonstrate is typically in regard to systematic extermination efforts of all Jews by gassing. Personally I feel this claim to be incorrect but I have no issue with people at least questioning and analyzing historical documents and facts given the tremendous misinformation and sensationalism that led to many incorrect narratives after the war in regard to the machinations of the German camp system.
This information was important as so many people, even to this day, wish to portray the entire German population, military and civilian, as informed of and generally complicit in such actions. In Europe it is a criminal offense punishable by substantial jail time to even question specifics in respect to the official Holocaust story. This is fundamentally outrageous and only serves itself to promote conspiracy theories across Europe in respect to the Holocaust.
Posted on 5/7/14 at 1:17 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
In Europe it is a criminal offense punishable by substantial jail time to even question specifics in respect to the official Holocaust story.
That isn't true across all of Europe.
quote:
The true "denialism" they demonstrate is typically in regard to systematic extermination efforts of all Jews by gassing. Personally I feel this claim to be incorrect but I have no issue with people at least questioning and analyzing historical documents and facts given the tremendous misinformation and sensationalism that led to many incorrect narratives after the war in regard to the machinations of the German camp system.
I think anyone who questioned whether or not the Jews were gassed and then went on to do research would find more evidence in favor of the holocaust having happened than they thought existed. THey've actually tested bricks from various locations in concentration camps and found the chemical remnants of Zylon-B exactly where they should be for mass murder - in "de-lousing" chambers and the like but not in the rest of the camp.
Its crucially important that physical evidence like this is preserved because in not to terribly long - all the eyewitnesses of the holocaust will be dead. Once the eyewitnesses die out - the ONLY evidence future generations have is physical evidence.
This post was edited on 5/7/14 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 5/7/14 at 1:42 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
That isn't true across all of Europe.
Forgive me for generalizing. Most all of Western and central Europe. Certainly France, Germany, Austria, etc. I should have phrased it, "across Europe."
Do you not agree that imprisoning people for challenging historical events and dogma is outrageous and can even prove counterproductive to its supposed purpose?
quote:
I think anyone who questioned whether or not the Jews were gassed and then went on to do research would find more evidence in favor of the holocaust having happened than they thought existed. THey've actually tested bricks from various locations in concentration camps and found the chemical remnants of Zylon-B exactly where they should be for mass murder - in "de-lousing" chambers and the like but not in the rest of the camp.
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. However, what prompted that testing? The Leuchter Report which was encouraged and facilitated by the interest of revisionists to peform real material testing to prove or disprove claims of mass gassing. Thus it was actually revisionists and their efforts to point out the lack of hard testing that actually drove others to do some basic verification work that should have been done decades prior.
quote:
Its crucially important that physical evidence like this is preserved because in not to terribly long - all the eyewitnesses of the holocaust will be dead. Once the eyewitnesses die out - the ONLY evidence future generations have is physical evidence.
Physical evidence should have been gathered from the outset. Eyewitness claims proved incredibly unreliable as the accounts from Dachau, Buchenwald, etc. quite easily demonstrated.
Honest revisionism is healthy, and as you pointed out, may in fact help to further prove and cement in hard evidence the occurrence of systematic anti-Jewish atrocities.
This post was edited on 5/7/14 at 1:44 pm
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