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re: Conservatives: what's your beef with libertarianism?
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:19 pm to AggieHank86
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:19 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
One can easily be both authoritarian AND conservative. In fact, the area of overlap is so large as to be almost coextensive.
Totally wrong. The one basic element of conservative thought is limiting govt power over the individual. The definition of totalitarianism is the exact opposite.
1
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:22 pm to troyt37
quote:Don’t you “claim” Republicans when they support your “conservative” views?
Claiming republicans because they support limited government and individual liberty is very libertarian if you.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:24 pm to MrCarton
So, you saying that Hoppe can No True Scotsman with the best of them? OK
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:28 pm to Zach
quote:You are clearly using a different political dictionary than anyone who has ever looked at a Nolan chart.
The one basic element of conservative thought is limiting govt power over the individual.
We can hardly communicate if we are defining the same word in different and opposite ways. I leave you to enjoy your (inaccurate) set of definitions.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:30 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
He is not a policy wonk. To the contrary, he is a policy illterate.
Fair trade much?
Try to get border wall much?
Push through tax cut much?
Select good Scotus appt much?
Reach out to NK much?
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:33 pm to goatmilker
Did I ever say that a Populist will never pursue some good ideas? (not that I agree with all of those listed)
A Populist is simply FAR less likely than a wonk to understand the REASON for the policy and far MORE likely to pursue it simply because it is popular. As such, he is far too likely to pusue policies that are inherently inconsistent with one another.
A Populist is simply FAR less likely than a wonk to understand the REASON for the policy and far MORE likely to pursue it simply because it is popular. As such, he is far too likely to pusue policies that are inherently inconsistent with one another.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 3:36 pm
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:37 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
Don’t you “claim” Republicans when they support your “conservative” views?
As conservatives? Not on your life. Bill Clinton signed welfare reform, that doesn’t make him a conservative. Trump cut taxes, that doesn’t make him a conservative either.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:45 pm to troyt37
quote:So, if libertarians within the GOP are not really libertarians, I suppose that conservatives within the GOP are not really conservatives, either.quote:As conservatives? Not on your life. Bill Clinton signed welfare reform, that doesn’t make him a conservative. Trump cut taxes, that doesn’t make him a conservative either.
Don’t you “claim” Republicans when they support your “conservative” views?
Based upon those premises, who ARE these “conservatives” that you continue to reference.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:46 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
quote:
The one basic element of conservative thought is limiting govt power over the individual.
You are clearly using a different political dictionary than anyone who has ever looked at a Nolan chart.
We can hardly communicate if we are defining the same word in different and opposite ways. I leave you to enjoy your (inaccurate) set of definitions.
Get a load of this shite! Limiting the power of government over the individual isn’t conservative thought. Not familiar with a Nolan chart, but if that’s what it says, it’s bullshite.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:53 pm to Houma Sapien
Conservatives and liberals both want big government controlling your life. they just differ on which areas to focus on.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:54 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
You are clearly using a different political dictionary than anyone who has ever looked at a Nolan chart.
Your definition of conservative is symptomatic of advanced levels of retardation. I've given you several examples of where it's illogical. But logic bounces off your head. Understandable considering your 'condishun'.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:55 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
So, if libertarians within the GOP are not really libertarians, I suppose that conservatives within the GOP are not really conservatives, either.
Based upon those premises, who ARE these “conservatives” that you continue to reference.
One small problem with that, zippy. Republicans proudly claim conservatism, co-opt it as a matter of fact. Take a gander at the Republican platform sometime, and count the number of time they claim conservatism.
Libertarians just use republicans to get elected, as they have almost no support otherwise. Then they spend their time and energy shitting on republicans and conservatives, as you see in this very thread. I guess helping democrats further their agenda by doing so is just an ancillary benefit.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:56 pm to TJGator1215
quote:
Conservatives and liberals both want big government controlling your life. they just differ on which areas to focus on.
Yep. That's why there is no divisiveness in politics. Yep. They're basically on the same team. Yep.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 3:59 pm to Zach
quote:
Yep. That's why there is no divisiveness in politics. Yep. They're basically on the same team. Yep.
It’s all pretend conflict. It’s not like leftists are shooting Republican legislators or anything.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 4:01 pm to troyt37
quote:You clearly limit yourself to a simplistic, one-dimensional (Left/Right) political analysis. It is very limiting. I honestly do not see how it is possible to have a meaningful political discussion with someone who has never even HEARD of a Nolan chart.
Get a load of this shite! Limiting the power of government over the individual isn’t conservative thought. Not familiar with a Nolan chart, but if that’s what it says, it’s bullshite.
The Nolan chart (and modifications/improvements thereto) uses two axes, rather than the elementary analysis of the left/right spectrum.
The north/south (vertical) axis is basically (in very simplified terms) the size and scope of government, ranging from authoritarianism in the south to complete freedom from government (anarchy, but in a neutral sense) in the north.
The east/west (horizontal) axis is (again, very simplified) traditionalism versus “progress,” ranging from extreme progressivism in the west to extreme traditionalism/conservatism in the east.
You are taking a small government (freedom) position from the north, and juxtaposing it onto the “conservative” position in the far east.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 8/5/18 at 4:05 pm to Zach
quote:That which you see as “logic,” more-informed people see as cursory, shallow analysis.
Your definition of conservative is symptomatic of advanced levels of retardation. I've given you several examples of where it's illogical. But logic bounces off your head.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 4:09 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
You are taking a small government (freedom) position from the north, and juxtaposing it onto the “conservative” position in the far east.
And you are inferring that millions of conservatives don’t believe in limiting the power of government over the individual. I don’t give a tinker’s damn where it falls on some damn chart, it’s bullshite.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 4:10 pm to Zach
quote:If Dems want to spent tax money on abortions, the GOP will oppose that. It the GOP wants to spend tax money on “family values,” the Dems will oppose that. In both cases, the two start from the supposition that government has a role,to play in THEIR issue.
That's why there is no divisiveness in politics. Yep. They're basically on the same team. Yep.
Libertarians don’t want tax money spent on EITHER, because government has NO ROLE in EITHER.
Posted on 8/5/18 at 4:16 pm to troyt37
quote:I said nothing of the sort.
you are inferring that millions of conservatives don’t believe in limiting the power of government over the individual. I don’t give a tinker’s damn where it falls on some damn chart, it’s bullshite.
If we divide the Nolan plane along the vertical axis, we can define everything in the west as “liberal” and everything in the west as “conservative.”. If we divide the same plane along the horizontal axis, everthing south of the axis can be defined as “authoritarian” and everything to the north as “libertarian.”
This gives us four quadrants, one of which is “libertarian and conservative.”. Below is is a quadrant for “authoritarian and conservative.”. You seem to fall into the first of those quadrants. For every “conservative” in your quadrant, there is one in the other as well.
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 4:18 pm
Posted on 8/5/18 at 4:21 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
If Dems want to spent tax money on abortions, the GOP will oppose that. It the GOP wants to spend tax money on “family values,” the Dems will oppose that. In both cases, the two start from the supposition that government has a role,to play in THEIR issue.
Libertarians don’t want tax money spent on EITHER, because government has NO ROLE in EITHER.
So libertarians sit back and say your’re both wrong, but nobody is listening. So the end result is democrats spend money on abortion when they get the chance, republicans spend money on family values when they get the chance, and libertarians sit in the corner and tell themselves how enlightened they are.
Stick with me a second. What would happen if libertarians supported republicans to stop democrat spending on abortion, then worked with republicans to reduce their spending on family values? You just achieved 50%-75% of your agenda.
But somehow it makes more sense to sit in your enlightened corner, and fling shite like a monkey, right?
This post was edited on 8/5/18 at 4:29 pm
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