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re: Does Satanism exist without Christianity?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:45 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:45 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Analyzing society, psychology, religions, and philosophy.
So...you base your moral values on foundational beliefs just like every other person on the planet.
0
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:45 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
If so, what are they based on?
Analyzing society, psychology, religions, and philosophy.
But not really, are they?
Not if we live in a materialist atheist universe.
If that's the case, then saying you "analyzed" anything is like saying the ocean "waved." You're not really a noun, you're a verb. As a noun, you're only an illusion. You're really just matter flinging itself about and producing phenomena as a result.
It's all just neurochemical firings randomly arrived at. You didn't really make a choice to embrace certain moral tenets, because there is no "you" to make that choice. Matter dictated your conclusions.
Has to be. Right?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:47 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
Has to be. Right?
Yep. Michael Schermer is one of the few materialists I've ever heard be honest about free will, but even as he admits it he doesn't act or talk as if he really believes it.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:53 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If so, what are they based on?
Analyzing society, psychology, religions, and philosophy.
Wait, you dont have beliefs that rise above societal accepted norms? This sounds like you just adopt the popular view.
Have you ever read any literature by Fyodor Dostoevsky? It sounds like you need some in your life.
This post was edited on 12/18/23 at 10:55 am
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:53 am to Flats
quote:
Michael Schermer is one of the few materialists I've ever heard be honest about free will, but even as he admits it he doesn't act or talk as if he really believes it.
I've heard most of the noted atheist authors admit it at some point, but just like you say, not one of them acts like it's true. And most of them almost immediately go back on it somewhere else in their writing.
Same with morality.
Which is why materialist atheism is the most self-contradictory philosophy in existence IME. I've never know a single person who actually acts as though it's true.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:54 am to Flats
quote:
Michael Schermer is one of the few materialists I've ever heard be honest about free will
Can you name materialists that claim there is still freewill in a strictly materialistic universe?
From my own experiences this is about as accepted in materialistic circles as Christ's resurrection is within Christian circles.
I do see the advantages of pretending this is some sort of hard pill for materialists to swallow. I'm just not sure it's true, at all.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:56 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Wait, you dont have beliefs that rise above societal accepted norms?
He named 3 other items... I'd assume said other items could outweigh societal norms and influence him to adopt a different stance on some issues.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:57 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
not one of them acts like it's true.
How would one act if one believed that?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:57 am to Azkiger
quote:
I'd assume said other items could outweigh societal norm
Sounds like hes basing his morals on commonly held values.
I honestly think most people dont have any self confidence in their own intuition.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:59 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Sounds like hes basing his morals on commonly held values.
Because societal norms is but one factor in a longer list of factors that determines how he feels about certain things?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 10:59 am to Willie Stroker
quote:
Go on, finish explaining that.
Since you don’t like the way that was phrased and your only response is rejection, are you equally offended that He created the conditions for it to exist?
If you were to continue your line of thinking and subject yourself to obvious follow up questions, what erodes first? The idea of an all loving God as Creator, or the idea that God did not create evil?
First, we obviously have to come from some level of talking about terms (evil, love, create, etc.), hence "create," in quotes.
God didn't create evil (and to the poster above, evil isn't necessarily the absence of God either. It is, but it isn't, the word evil, absence, etc. are all just incomplete ideas to say what it is).
What God did was create a system, an order - this is why the terms order and disorder are actually some of the best in these discussions - then he created everything in it (of course there you go - he created everything in it SFP).
The goal of this system was to allow creatures - us - to be elevated and aligned with God's will eternally which is pure love and mercy. Because God is all loving, that idea doesn't erode. God doesn't need people, angels etc.in some sense of desire. What he offered is a free exchange of love to us - but there's the word - free.
Freedom means the ability to not choose God as well. It's the ultimate offer- accept and return God's love - or don't. Eternal life - or not. But we have to take it and return it consciously. We can't be coerced or forced, that takes away the purity of love. It must be offered free of requirements. Even Angels had this choice - and Lucifer simply rejected it. Believed himself to be a god, and was cast out. Lucifer was created as an angel - but he and other angels had his choice and rejected it. God didn't create Lucifer evil, he created him good and gave him a choice.
So, as you mention, "the conditions of evil," depends on how you understand - evil - which is to be disordered from God. Did God create the space? Again - God didn't say - "here's the space for evil to exist. And here is evil." He created Freedom, and free choice to order ourselves to God, and the Freedom not to. This doesn't mean he isn't all-loving - on the contrary he created the very conditions for pure love that we - all of us - frequently reject. You're looking at "Evil," as the end goal or as "the thing created," in our eyes Evil is a tangible thing, that's not how it works. It's a will and actions disordered from God, that's Evil - but at the very core that's what freedom asks of us.
ETA: SFP - I'd also like to point that where this issue comes from is the Iowa/Satanist State Capital discussion - where the point is - For TRUE Freedom to exist, we must allow Satanists to put Statues in the courthouse and that whether or not they are evil is irrelevant - because it's about the logical Consistency of Freedom... weeeeeeelllllll.....
This post was edited on 12/18/23 at 11:25 am
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:03 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
Which is why materialist atheism is the most self-contradictory philosophy in existence
One of the best thinkers on the absurdity of rational utopianism.
Jordan Peterson explains Notes from Underground.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:12 am to Azkiger
quote:
How would one act if one believed that?
As though there is no reason for moral outrage (about literally anything), as though there is no way to validate any conclusions or trust any thought processes, etc.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:13 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Jordan Peterson explains Notes from Underground.
There's a reason Peterson eventually started believing in God.
He nails it about utopia and he's saying thing very much in line with how the world is ordered. Giving people everything they want - essentially coercing them into belief - is not real love. Freedom of choice is exactly the point of everything, therefore the choice to not choose - what Satan did - had to exist in the first place. And we are creatures who wrestle with that throughout our existence. It's the point.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:15 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
As though there is no reason for moral outrage
So someone believing that empathy is an evolutionary adaptation that has helped humans accomplish what they've accomplished behaving empathetically is a contradiction? Sorry, I'm not seeing it.
quote:
as though there is no way to validate any conclusions or trust any thought processes
Besides those thought processes being tested and verified in reality?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:16 am to Freauxzen
quote:
And we are creatures who wrestle with that throughout our existence. It's the point.
Yessir.
Rational vs irrational, emotion vs reason, cheap pleasure vs contentment.
We're spiritual creatures in a material world, irrational creatures in a rational existence.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:17 am to Azkiger
quote:
Because societal norms is but one factor in a longer list of factors that determines how he feels about certain things?
If "intuition" isnt in there, then hes looking at half the spectrum.
I believe we innately understand some things are wrong and right.
This post was edited on 12/18/23 at 11:21 am
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:20 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
If "intuition" isnt in there
Isn't that already baked into the equation if he's the one deciding how he feels about each of those items and the claims made within them?
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:22 am to Azkiger
quote:
Isn't that already baked into the equation if he's the one deciding how he feels about each of those items and the claims made within them?
Potentially, or he may just be adopting views that are societal norms.
Posted on 12/18/23 at 11:24 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Potentially, or he may just be adopting views that are societal norms.
Adopting views that happen to also be accepted as societal norms isn't the same thing as adopting things because they're societal norms.
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