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re: Good for Pope Francis
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:25 am to DisplacedBuckeye
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:25 am to DisplacedBuckeye
Is this your new cool smug way to tell everyone you are an atheist
0
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:25 am to bmy
quote:
I think 30 would be more common but either way it is more than one generation later that stuff was recorded.
Some was and some wasn't. Most likely, Paul's epistles and the Gospel of Mark were written within that tie frame. But I guarantee absolutely no part of it was written 150 years later much less all of it.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:26 am to OBReb6
quote:
Pope Francis is going to hell
God is that you?
quote:
OBReb6
Never mind. It's not.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:27 am to AUveritas
quote:
If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
He uses a bit of hyperbole, but I think his point is to first own up that one is a dreadful sinner and also that God's mercy is so great that it can cover even the most egregious sins. Our sins are not "imaginary" but real and we should see ourselves as sinners in need of grace.
I could be wrong of course, but I'm just a bit skeptical of the argument that Luther sanctioned sinning.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:28 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Pope Francis
I'm Catholic... I don't like Catholics... I don't like many of the things the Catholic religion says/does... But I am Catholic, and I love what the heart of Catholicism stands for and is. And with that said, Pope Francis is a fricking troll.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:29 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
I see the logic, but it doesn't "need" an intelligent creator.
Logically speaking, eventually you'd have to arrive at an uncaused first cause. For many reasons, that cause would have to be timeless, space less, intelligent and personal. Call it Fred or xlwqpfdd1 if you'd like. Theists call It God.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:32 am to Sapere
I would say that most of the posts in this thread "blaming" reformers are a convenient excuse for the declining prominence of Christianity generally and Catholicism more specifically.
Instead of confronting their own side's black eyes (and the Catholic Church has quite a few), it is easier that the world would magically be a better place if Luther hadn't done what he did, while ignoring the reasons and causes that made the schism happen in the first place.
Instead of confronting their own side's black eyes (and the Catholic Church has quite a few), it is easier that the world would magically be a better place if Luther hadn't done what he did, while ignoring the reasons and causes that made the schism happen in the first place.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:33 am to AUveritas
quote:Generations are usually defined in increments of about 18 to 20 years (e.g., Millenials were born from about 1982 to 2000), so I guess the oldest in one generation is about 40 years older than the youngest in the next.
Most commonly, a generation has to come to mean about 40 years.
However, considering the average life span has about doubled since the time of Jesus then I would say the 40 year generational span is probably a bit different today.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 11:35 am
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:34 am to AUveritas
quote:Sure but it doesn't mean the cause was some "intelligent" entity.
Logically speaking, eventually you'd have to arrive at an uncaused first cause. For many reasons, that cause would have to be timeless, space less, intelligent and personal. Call it Fred or xlwqpfdd1 if you'd like. Theists call It God.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:35 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
However, considering the average life span has about doubled since the time of Jesus then I would say the 40 year generational span is probably a bit different today.
That's fairly simplistic. The infant mortality rate in Jesus' time was astronomical, so life span calculations are incredibly skewed using the typical measure.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:36 am to Sapere
quote:
He uses a bit of hyperbole, but I think his point is to first own up that one is a dreadful sinner and also that God's mercy is so great that it can cover even the most egregious sins. Our sins are not "imaginary" but real and we should see ourselves as sinners in need of grace.
I could be wrong of course, but I'm just a bit skeptical of the argument that Luther sanctioned sinning.
If you do any substantial study on Luther, you'll quickly discover that Luther was troubled by his sins and was terrified he'd lose his salvation. He desired a God that would allow him to be saved by faith alone (which is why he added the word alone to Romans 3:28 and wanted the book of James that says we aren't saved by faith alone removed from the NT). Given that context, no mental gymnastics are necessary. He said what he meant.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:46 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
Sure but it doesn't mean the cause was some "intelligent" entity.
Sure it does. If it is an eternal impersonal force, the effect would have been eternal also. The cause also had to use its will to step out of infinity in a specific moment to cause something to come into existence. This requires intelligence .
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:48 am to AUveritas
quote:
This requires intelligence .
No, it doesn't.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:50 am to AUveritas
quote:
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
This quote is from Luther's commentary on Galatians 5:6. I don't think your interpretation of the previous statement makes much sense given the above.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 11:55 am to LSUfanNkaty
quote:
I love what the heart of Catholicism stands for and is. And with that said, Pope Francis is a fricking troll.
OMG, you are so off base here.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:00 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
No, it doesn't.
Of course it does. If it were an impersonal force, the effect would have always existed in conjunction with the cause. The First Cause had to, as an act of the will, create an effect without an antecedent.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:06 pm to Sapere
In the totality of Luther's teachings, it's obvious Luther would say none of that is required for salvation. He'd think it would be ideal, not necessary. Luther obviously taught Sola Fide. He practically invented it and it became the cornerstone of his break with Rome.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:09 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Sure but it doesn't mean the cause was some "intelligent" entity.
buckeye_vol would you like to argue that the cause/creator of the universe is not an intelligent entity? Cause if that's what your proposing you have to realize your position is hopelessly unsound
A few days ago I read a quote by Dr. William Lane Craig that I thought described the atheists on this board perfectly. He said, “it often pains me to see how desperately ignorant many young atheists and agnostics are. Often as arrogant as they are ignorant, they just have no inkling of the incredible intellectual resources contemporary Christian philosophers have provided for the formulation and defense of basic Christian doctrines.”
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:26 pm to amsterdam
quote:No, I'm arguing that it's not a requirement. It may be; it may not be. My argument is that "We don't know."
would you like to argue that the cause/creator of the universe is not an intelligent entity?
quote:Yes. I'm arguing that we are ignorant of the mechanisms behind an event billions of years ago.
He said, “it often pains me to see how desperately ignorant many young atheists and agnostics are.
quote:Well I don't purport to know the answer so if "I don't know" is arrogant then I guess that describes me.
Often as arrogant as they are ignorant,
quote:I have an inkling of the resources put into it, and how important those philosophers have been in all sorts of disciplines (e.g., Aquinas). But that doesn't somehow make the conclusion about a truly unknown event (creation of the universe) somehow an irrefutable and objective truth.
they just have no inkling of the incredible intellectual resources contemporary Christian philosophers have provided for the formulation and defense of basic Christian doctrines.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:27 pm to AUveritas
quote:
In the totality of Luther's teachings, it's obvious Luther would say none of that is required for salvation. He'd think it would be ideal, not necessary. Luther obviously taught Sola Fide. He practically invented it and it became the cornerstone of his break with Rome.
I think you might misunderstand the Reformed position in general and Luther's. Good works, though they do not justify, flow necessarily from a saving faith as fruits or effects. It would seem odd to teach such a thing and then proclaim that it is ok to sin. This is why I doubt Luther would teach that Sola Fide allows and permits sinning, as your interpretation of Luther's letter to Melanchthon implies.
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