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re: Good for Pope Francis
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:30 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:30 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
quote:
OMG, you are so off base here.
Trust me... I went to Catholic School
0
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:37 pm to Sapere
I spent 35+ years of my life as Southern Baptist, so I'm more than familiar with Protestant soteriology. Sola fide permeates all of Luther's works. Once saved, always saved. It's why he wanted to remove James from the NT. It's why he arbitrarily added "alone" in Paul's letter to the Romans. The Catholic teaching that faith and works are inseparable frightened him immensely.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:39 pm to Sapere
It always goes back to the notion of "total depravity" vs. "free will".
The doctrine of total depravity necessitates that the Holy Spirit must work in the heart of a believer and give them a desire and ability to do "good works". Those who lack the Spirit cannot please God through their works and therefore cannot save themselves through those works. It's why "faith without works is dead" is even in the scriptures: it presupposes the faith that is held is a true faith which is granted by the Spirit which then also enables a believer to do good works. Lacking good works is an evidence of a lack of the Holy Spirit (and thus a lack of true, saving faith). In other words, your works prove your faith and those without works have no faith.
The doctrine of total depravity necessitates that the Holy Spirit must work in the heart of a believer and give them a desire and ability to do "good works". Those who lack the Spirit cannot please God through their works and therefore cannot save themselves through those works. It's why "faith without works is dead" is even in the scriptures: it presupposes the faith that is held is a true faith which is granted by the Spirit which then also enables a believer to do good works. Lacking good works is an evidence of a lack of the Holy Spirit (and thus a lack of true, saving faith). In other words, your works prove your faith and those without works have no faith.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:44 pm to AUveritas
quote:
Of course it does.
Wrong. A possibility, maybe, but not a certainty.
quote:
If it were an impersonal force, the effect would have always existed in conjunction with the cause. The First Cause had to, as an act of the will, create an effect without an antecedent.
This is a circular argument that comes from another circular argument. It's nonsensical.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:48 pm to FooManChoo
But ultimately, Luther believed works played no role in salvation. While Catholics agree that works cannot save, they're not ultimately meaningless. Faith and works play an equal role in salvation according to Jesus.
Matthew 25
Matthew 25
quote:
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:49 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
This is a circular argument that comes from another circular argument. It's nonsensical.
It's logical, not circular. There is no other possibility.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:51 pm to AUveritas
quote:
It's logical
Saying it doesn't make it so.
quote:
There is no other possibility.
Incorrect.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:52 pm to AUveritas
quote:
I spent 35+ years of my life as Southern Baptist, so I'm more than familiar with Protestant soteriology. Sola fide permeates all of Luther's works. Once saved, always saved. It's why he wanted to remove James from the NT. It's why he arbitrarily added "alone" in Paul's letter to the Romans. The Catholic teaching that faith and works are inseparable frightened him immensely.
I don't quite understand your point. I agree that Luther believed in sola fide. That is not in question. What is in question is whether Luther actually stated and believed that sinning was permissible. Given his views, I find it ridiculous to suppose that is what he meant.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:53 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Incorrect
Then you should be able to offer an alternative explanation
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:54 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
quote: The theories of evolution and the Big Bang are real and God is not “a magician with a magic wand”, Pope Francis has declared.
So you applaud an idiotic statement that implies that God, ( by definition, one who can do all things) is somehow a limited being with limited powers? I understand why you are an atheist.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:55 pm to Sapere
It's obvious he viewed it as something not to be desired, but ultimately meaningless in matters of salvation.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:56 pm to AUveritas
quote:The null is that it wasn't an intelligent creator; it doesn't have to be a specific hypothesis itself. You may be right, but we don't have evidence to prove it one way or the other.
Then you should be able to offer an alternative explanation
Posted on 12/20/16 at 12:59 pm to AUveritas
quote:
Then you should be able to offer an alternative explanation
Why? Not that long ago, the primitives who wrote the New Testament couldn't explain light or gravity. You made the assertion. It's on you to prove its veracity.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 2:11 pm
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:00 pm to buckeye_vol
It requires an act of free will. If you had been sitting in a chair for all infinity, do you not agree it would take an act of your will to stand up?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:02 pm to AUveritas
quote:Why?
It requires an act of free will
quote:If the chair breaks, and I bounce up to a standing position, it didn't take require my "will" for external forces to cause my new position.
If you had been sitting in a chair for all infinity, do you not agree it would take an act of your will to stand up?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:03 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
You made the assertion. It's on you to prove it's veracity.
Wrong, it falls to the person making the positive claim. That the cause of the universe doesn't need to be intelligent is a positive claim.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:05 pm to AUveritas
Incorrect. You've continuously made this claim, which I responded to.
Prove it.
***edit***
I'll also note that I never made this claim.
quote:
It requires an act of free will.
Prove it.
***edit***
I'll also note that I never made this claim.
quote:
That the cause of the universe doesn't need to be intelligent is a positive claim.
This post was edited on 12/20/16 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:07 pm to AUveritas
You've got Norris on page one calling the Pope an atheist.
how is that OK? doesnt that offend TN Bhoy's and Doc Fenton's sensibilities?
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:07 pm to AUveritas
quote:The reformers emphasis on faith alone was to counter the notion that good works, apart from faith, had merit before God, even in as much as it relates to salvation. The reformation probably wouldn't have happened when it did (if at all) if the RC church didn't come up with the idea of indulgences where people could essentially go to heaven (knock years off of your or your loved ones' stay in purgatory) if you do good works such as giving alms to the church. Good works, by themselves, merited salvation in some sense.
But ultimately, Luther believed works played no role in salvation. While Catholics agree that works cannot save, they're not ultimately meaningless. Faith and works play an equal role in salvation according to Jesus.
Matthew 25
"Faith alone" was not to dismiss good works but put them where they belong, as an evidence of salvation already obtained, not a means to obtain it.
Posted on 12/20/16 at 1:07 pm to buckeye_vol
Don't twist my words, just answer the question. If you were sitting in a chair for all eternity, would it take an act of your will to stand up?
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