- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Winter Olympics
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Immigration Has Killed Civic Nationalism
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:13 am to Pookers
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:13 am to Pookers
quote:
Duh, thats why civic nationalism is bullshite.
So I'm trying to understand your position. Are you saying that patriotism is BS too? If so, then I can assume you also believe in no borders, etc.
2
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:18 am to Smeg
quote:
This is the type of reading literature you'd find in Pookers bathroom if you visited his home. That's how he knows he's better than you.
I have a a lot of history books on my shelves. They all indicate civic nationalism doesn't work long term.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:19 am to Friscodog
quote:
So I'm trying to understand your position. Are you saying that patriotism is BS too? If so, then I can assume you also believe in no borders, etc.
My position is Nationalism is great. Civic nationalism is bullshite.
Homogeneous nations concern themselves with foreign policy, heterogeneous nations concern themselves with domestic policy (because they have to).
Chyna has been here thousands of years and is still Chyna. The US will be a failed empire within the next 50-100 and will serve as yet another example of why you don't bring in multiple nations of people and expect it to work long term.
This is NOT rocket science. Read a history book some of you please.
This post was edited on 9/10/24 at 11:27 am
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:22 am to Friscodog
Let’s say you’re a fan of a team and invite 10 friends over that are also fans of that team for a watch party. They all bring a dish and promise to help clean up after. Then later on 10 random people from off the street barge in and start eating your food, and put a soccer game on the other TV so loud you can’t hear your game.
It doesn’t mean being a fan of a team is bullshite. It just means you have bigger problems than the game to worry about right now.
It doesn’t mean being a fan of a team is bullshite. It just means you have bigger problems than the game to worry about right now.
This post was edited on 9/10/24 at 11:23 am
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:46 am to lake chuck fan
So how do you square your assertion with the millions of Italians that came in around 1900 -1910 and had their own celebrations like San Gennaro and the like.
Tony , Angelo and Dom all ultimately blended into the mainstream despite having tribal and cultural celebrations that were also celebrated in the countries they came from.
Tony , Angelo and Dom all ultimately blended into the mainstream despite having tribal and cultural celebrations that were also celebrated in the countries they came from.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:49 am to Pookers
quote:
Because it doesn't work. Can you point to a historical nation in which it has? There is no magic dirt.
I don't think you know what civic nationalism means. There are no definitions or interpretations that suggest magic dirt. The dirt is not what creates this brand of nationalism. Civic nationalism is about the values.
From wiki:
Civic nationalism, otherwise known as democratic nationalism, is a form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights, and is not based on ethnocentrism.
Annu. Rev. Political Sci. 2019. 22:419–34
It is tempting to do this by suggesting a distinction between two kinds of nationalism: the good kind, which allows national emotions to correspond with abstract moral principles, and the bad kind, which leaves no room for rational discourse, representing an irrational relic or retrogressive return to a barbarous past. The former is commonly associated with civic nationalism, the latter with nationalism’s more ethnic forms.
Writing at the end of World War II, Kohn (1944) distinguished between civic nationalism, a rational and liberal way of thinking founded on respect for human rights and personal freedoms, and ethnic nationalism, a mystical,
religious, and ethnocentric mindset predicated on tribal feelings. Civic nationalism, Kohn argued, is characteristic of liberal-minded Western states and is a modern political phenomenon closely related to the pursuit of personal liberty...
Kohn’s (1944) distinction between a high and a low form of nationalism was adopted by other scholars, who have argued that civic nationalism is characteristic of culturally developed nations that can, from a position of self-confidence, approach each other on an equal footing, seeking cooperation on the basis of mutual respect.... Ignatieff (1993, p. 6) follows the same line of argument, claiming that civic nationalism is constituted by “a community of equal, rights-bearing individuals who are united in patriotic attachment to a shared set of political practices and values.”
Posted on 9/10/24 at 11:53 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:I don't know, maybe. The idea of the US - among many - was to challenge this orthodoxy. Are you really arguing the US was weaker in 1950 (after many waves of immigration) than it was in 1850?
If you blow up the ethnos with diversity, you end up with tyranny, because that's the only force that can hold it all together. The lack of a coherent shared culture, and the genetic distance between the populations becomes a problem, we are all inherently tribal and the genetic link matters. That was true in ancient Greece and it's true today.
I'd make a more specific contention: without Islam, we aren't talking about any of this.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 12:01 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
The idea of the US - among many - was to challenge this orthodoxy.
That idea first crops up in the late 19th century, and only becomes dogma in the aftermath of WW2.
Immigration was a hugely contentious through the 1800s, and while German immigration made us stronger as a people, we largely destroyed their culture through forced assimilation.
quote:
Are you really arguing the US was weaker in 1950 (after many waves of immigration) than it was in 1850?
Yes, the problems we're dealing with now really go back to that period. We've been in a state of decline since the end of the war.
quote:
I'd make a more specific contention: without Islam, we aren't talking about any of this.
The mass immigration of Africans is just as bad.
Mass immigration in general, except perhaps from Europe, is bad.
This post was edited on 9/10/24 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 9/10/24 at 12:12 pm to Pookers
quote:
Chyna has been here thousands of years and is still Chyna. The US will be a failed empire within the next 50-100 and will serve as yet another example of why you don't bring in multiple nations of people and expect it to work long term.
I get your point about the US, but China is not a great example here. China has gone through a lot of changes over time, of such magnitude that you can make a strong argument that different nations have existed on that same patch of land, but with the same name.
Also, I'd point to the fact that the US, in a very short amount of time, surpassed the power, prestige, and prosperity of China, which had been around for thousands of years. A lot of Chinese people left China for the US in recent times. To me that does not suggest that civic nationalism was any sort of failure. The decline you allude to for the US looks like a breakdown in civic nationalism. The importation of all the other people you mention destroys civic nationalism because they don't subscribe to any of these concepts as a way to bond us all together. They have no allegiance to the dirt, the culture, the language, the law, the ideas, the concepts, or anything else that's here. That can be nothing else but destructive. It would be destructive in a nation bonded by civic nationalism, ethnic nationalism, religious nationalism, or any other system. These infusions do nothing but produce chaos.
China's version of nationalism has been this: whoever has power and control of violence controls the land, people, the ideas, and everything else. China has morphed continuously as the power brokers have changed. Modern communist China definitely plays the long game, however.
The US version of nationalism has been anchored to liberalism, freedom, etc, embracing the fact that without fidelity to the nation, you will not have the safety and freedom to pursue the elements of individual freedom. Yes, there have been internal problems, but that seems to be part of the price of admission when you create a liberal nation with lots of freedom. Sometimes that freedom allows some destructive movements to get started. So long as we don't go over the edge, this results in taking 3 steps forward and one step back. Much better than most nations. That said, we are close to going over the edge.
It seems like your real argument here is the breakdown in civic nationalism. Magic dirt is just nationalism. Civic nationalism takes on a different character. Civic nationalism creates and preserves a nation for its people, regardless of location. In nationalism, location is destiny and whoever controls the location, controls the destiny of everyone there. This is why Ron Paul and others talked about how important ideas are, over and above weapons. The power of ideas comes through the writings of Locke and many others and is one of the most fundamental aspects to the founding of this nation and is central to civic nationalism.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 12:14 pm to Lima Whiskey
People must think that retarded poem on the side of the statue of liberty was pulled form the constitution or something. It wasn't, however, this is found in the preamble:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Modern "conservatives" would have us believe posterity means anyone who can get on a boat and take an exam.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Modern "conservatives" would have us believe posterity means anyone who can get on a boat and take an exam.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 12:26 pm to Pookers
quote:
Modern "conservatives" would have us believe posterity means anyone who can get on a boat and take an exam.
I think if you substitute Republican for conservative, then you are pretty much on target. Republicans (virtually all of them) are not really conservative these days, nor are they patriotic. To be honest, I don't even think Republicans want them to take an exam. Both parties are giant shite stains.
As Massie laid out in that video that was posted here earlier - Speaker Johnson is grand standing with the SAVE Act in the CR, but he's going to pull it, we'll get a CR, and then an omnibus before the CR runs out, nothing will change, and Republicans will not dig in on election integrity, because they don't actually care about the nation. If that doesn't belie the death of civic nationalism, I don't know what does. Our own government is going to work to invalidate the votes (the ideas) of its own citizens.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 12:45 pm to Pookers
quote:
People must think that retarded poem on the side of the statue of liberty was pulled form the constitution or something. It wasn't
Oh absolutely, Emma Lazarus was a Jewish revolutionary, and she was speaking very selfishly.
quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Agreed
Posted on 9/10/24 at 12:50 pm to Lima Whiskey
I think legal immigration is a net benefit if it's done by the law and the immigrants are required to assimilate into a shared culture of the citizenry.
However, over the past 30-40 years we have seen tens of millions of illegals enter the country with many never learning the common spoken language (English) which places a nearly impossible barrier to assimilation, this in turn leads to communities of immigrants who retain the cultures of their nation of origin and this brings disunity amongst the common citizenry of the nation.
However, over the past 30-40 years we have seen tens of millions of illegals enter the country with many never learning the common spoken language (English) which places a nearly impossible barrier to assimilation, this in turn leads to communities of immigrants who retain the cultures of their nation of origin and this brings disunity amongst the common citizenry of the nation.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:18 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
I think legal immigration is a net benefit if it's done by the law and the immigrants are required to assimilate into a shared culture of the citizenry.
The Haitians are being brought in legally.
quote:
immigration is a net benefit
Diversity leads to tribalism and a break down in social trust. Crime and poverty go up, ethnic and religious factionalism increases. And that explains why things are so bad today.
There's no upside to immigration, unless perhaps they're European and so similar to us that it works.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:25 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:Exclusive of Islam? I disagree. e.g. The non-moslem, Kenyan and Nigerian disaspora in the US is spectacular. I'd take them over most "native" Americans.
The mass immigration of Africans is just as bad.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:33 pm to Big Scrub TX
Nigerians make sure their kids do their fing homework.
I don't think Europeans can be given a pass. They tend to love voting for people that strangle agriculture, free speech, etc. Now, Eastern Europeans, that’s a different story.
I don't think Europeans can be given a pass. They tend to love voting for people that strangle agriculture, free speech, etc. Now, Eastern Europeans, that’s a different story.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:39 pm to OBReb6
quote:
Let’s say you’re a fan of a team and invite 10 friends over that are also fans of that team for a watch party. They all bring a dish and promise to help clean up after. Then later on 10 random people from off the street barge in and start eating your food, and put a soccer game on the other TV so loud you can’t hear your game.
It doesn’t mean being a fan of a team is bullshite. It just means you have bigger problems than the game to worry about right now.
It's worse though because these people didn't barge in off the street, to keep using your example- they were *invited* by one of your friends leaving the door open, or in some cases just going outside and telling them to come in.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:41 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
The non-moslem, Kenyan and Nigerian disaspora in the US is spectacular. I'd take them over most "native" Americans.
Then you are a traitor and our enemy
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:44 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
So how do you square your assertion with the millions of Italians that came in around 1900 -1910 and had their own celebrations like San Gennaro and the like.
Tony , Angelo and Dom all ultimately blended into the mainstream despite having tribal and cultural celebrations that were also celebrated in the countries they came from.
I'm not entirely anti immigrant but the Italians were not always welcomed because it was feared they'd bring two major issues from the home country. One, organized crime and two, public sector corruption. And honestly...they did. They brought both of those things with them. So yes they assimilated but a lot of that assimilation was due to white flight in the 60s breaking up their urban enclaves in Chicago and the Northeast. It was not an entirely painless assimilation process. Now think of the levels of organized crime and public sector corruption in Latin America and what the Mexicans, central Americans and Venezuelans will bring with them.
Posted on 9/10/24 at 1:48 pm to mattfromnj
Every culture has organized crime. And I’d put more of the public corruption on the Democrat party (Tammany hall, etc) and eventually unions.
Page 2 of 3
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News