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Message
1
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:27 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
That's not a very good analysis.
Says the guy who can't figure out what religion that phrase is representing.
Ok dude...
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:28 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Says the guy who can't figure out what religion that phrase is representing
Well, I'm looking at it from a legal standpoint. Not an emotional one. If you can make an argument for the former instead of relying on the latter that would be very helpful.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:30 pm to rumproast
Seperation of church and state baw
A bet you would throw a shite fit if they had in Allah We Trust at a school
A bet you would throw a shite fit if they had in Allah We Trust at a school
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:31 pm to BBONDS25
What does it matter, I mean it's obviously Christianity, but religion and government shouldn't mix
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:33 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Says the guy who can't figure out what religion that phrase is representing.
Says the dude who can't figure out what "Creator" is representing.
Or Supreme Judge, or Divine Providence.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:34 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Well, I'm looking at it from a legal standpoint. Not an emotional one. If you can make an argument for the former instead of relying on the latter that would be very helpful.
No, you're looking at it from the same way as you're looking at my posts - from a "I'm going to play dumb" angle.
Pointing to the mob of people who not only demand that it stay the national motto, but who also pushed it through in the first place to ascertain which religion this phrase represents is not an emotional argument.
Stop playing dumb.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:34 pm to Azkiger
quote:
I'm suggesting that the vagueness of that term leaves it open to the individual. Some of our prominent founding fathers were deists.
So the pilgrims and puritans leave England to come establish a country where the Judeo-Christian God can be worshipped, and then these people, who were educated in universities invented to train pastors get into politics, they create a Deceleration of Independence that gives credit to the creator for our rights, and I'm supposed to believe it's a different creator than the one they've traditionally worshiped? Is that what you'd have me to believe?
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:35 pm to GRTiger
quote:
Says the dude who can't figure out what "Creator" is representing.
...
I said what it represented...
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:36 pm to rumproast
Well to be fair, if you want to have the liberty to practice whatever religion you want, you can’t pay homage to one specific “god.”
This is probably one of the only topics that I am “liberal” about.
This is probably one of the only topics that I am “liberal” about.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:37 pm to Revelator
quote:
and I'm supposed to believe it's a difdent creator than the one they've traditionally worshiped? Is that what you'd have me to believe?
That’s the beauty of being an American. Believe whatever you want.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:38 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Keep in mind, there wasn't a single vote against this treaty.
So what? That is supposed to prove ___________?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:40 pm to Revelator
quote:
So the pilgrims and puritans leave England to come establish a country where the Judeo-Christian God can be worshipped, and then these people, who were educated in universities invented to train pastors get into politics, they create a Deceleration of Independence that gives credit to the creator for our rights, and I'm supposed to believe it's a different creator than the one they've traditionally worshiped? Is that what you'd have me to believe?
So you think the pilgrims wrote the Declaration of Independence?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:43 pm to Revelator
quote:
[quote]...and I'm supposed to believe it's a difdent creator than the one they've traditionally worshiped?
Is that what you'd have me believe?
No, for those individuals that's exactly what it meant. But they understood the dangers of mixing government and religion. They just fled a Christian theocracy, why would they establish the same thing here?
They wanted a religiously neutral government, and using the term "creator" was open ended enough to represent virtually anyone and everyone.
And if I'd have you believe anything, it'd be that the Way of the Master is a joke. I may be an atheist but there are certainly great intellectuals within the Christian community that really challenge what you think and Ray Comfort, Todd Friel, and Kirk Cameron are not among them.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:44 pm to Dale51
quote:
So what? That is supposed to prove ___________?
That you are at odds with the 1790's US Senate with respect to what America's foundation is.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:46 pm to Revelator
quote:Jefferson was neither a pilgrim nor a puritan, and he was not descended from them. Wrong colony.
So the pilgrims and puritans leave England to come establish a country where the Judeo-Christian God can be worshipped, and then these people, who were educated in universities invented to train pastors get into politics, they create a Deceleration of Independence that gives credit to the creator for our rights, and I'm supposed to believe it's a different creator than the one they've traditionally worshiped? Is that what you'd have me to believe?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:47 pm to Argonaut
The founder being highlighted as our most important diest did. He also said things like this in his inaugural address:
The language used in the DoI was certainly carefully crafted to not assume all free men in the country ascribe to the same beliefs. But context tells us that it is the beliefs of the writers that motivated any such language in the first place.
I think this is all a matter of misunderstanding certain arguments. The founders did not intend America to be a Christian nation. They did, however, base the principles of its founding on Christian values.
quote:
I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with his providence, and our riper years with his wisdom and power; and to whose goodness I ask you to join with me in supplications, that he will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.
The language used in the DoI was certainly carefully crafted to not assume all free men in the country ascribe to the same beliefs. But context tells us that it is the beliefs of the writers that motivated any such language in the first place.
I think this is all a matter of misunderstanding certain arguments. The founders did not intend America to be a Christian nation. They did, however, base the principles of its founding on Christian values.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:51 pm to GRTiger
quote:
The founder
So not the pilgrims...
quote:
They did, however, base the principles of its founding on Christian values.
Those values aren't unique to Christianity, and they didn't solely use Christian values. That context tells us that Christians have no claim to the foundation of this country.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:52 pm to GRTiger
quote:
They did, however, base the principles of its founding on Christian values.
They might have thought they did, but I have yet to see a Christian cite to me the New Testament inspirations for the Bill of Rights. It's an easy thing to assert but something else entirely to justify.
Just look at the 10 commandments, how many made it into law? So much for being founded on Christian values.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:56 pm to Azkiger
quote:
They wanted a religiously neutral government, and using the term "creator" was open ended enough to represent virtually anyone and everyone.
That's a separate issue than if the word creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence represented the Judeo-Christian God. Even if the creator spoken of in the deceleration was speaking about the Christian God, it wouldn't prevent a non believer from being included.
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