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1
Posted on 12/24/24 at 1:49 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:quote:Just as you are "using it" as you wish.
It’s often used by Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and atheists to show that Jesus and God were separate. It’s anti-Trinitarian.
Galatians 4:4 literally says “made” or “manufactured” of woman in Greek, which was an idiom meant to represent someone being human. It doesn’t say born, but many scribes have tried to change this word to be “born” so it would fit their dogma and theology.
Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, Dr Bart D Ehrman, pages 238-239:
Let me add clarification. Galatians 4:4 was changed by scribes who did not like the fact that Jesus was “made” of woman instead of being “born” or woman. The reason for making the change is to support the gospels of Matthew and Luke in particular the birth narrative. Modern scholars have enough manuscripts of the same texts that they were able to spot the changes and understand the reasons for making the change.
The original is undoubtedly “made” of a woman”, not “born” of a woman. Groups of Christians who were not orthodox, who claimed that Jesus was never born of a woman, used Galatians 4:4 to attack their orthodox enemies. These groups were the docetics, Marcionites, Gnostics, and others.
In 1 John, 2 John, and 2 Peter, the orthodox scribes are even warning their brothers and complaining about the other Christians who did not believe Jesus came to earth and was born of a woman. Some of those sects held beliefs akin to Paul in that Jesus was never born on earth and was killed in heaven by evil angels.
Posted on 12/24/24 at 3:22 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:I get it. There was a distinction. That is why I asked what the Greek term for birth subsequent to immaculate conception is? or more importantly what was it in first century lexicon.
Let me add clarification. Galatians 4:4 was changed by scribes who did not like the fact that Jesus was “made” of woman instead of being “born” or woman.
Posted on 12/24/24 at 3:28 pm to Lynxrufus2012
Therein lies by biggest problem with religion. Commanding us to obey the government and pay taxes... No wonder 90% of folks around here are such sheep.
Posted on 12/24/24 at 5:43 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Negative. Hence my response.
Herod had freedom to govern Judea internally, including undertaking ambitious building projects (e.g., expansion of the Second Temple) and implementing policies to enhance trade and prosperity. But, he was required to ensure Roman interests, such as tax collection, were upheld.
Their tributary status allowed them to run their nation however they wanted so long as they paid Rome a fee.
There is no evidence of Judea performing peacetime censuses during that time. Moreover, governor Quirinius was involved in the census in question, necessitating Judea being part of the Roman providence of Syria. This did not occur until around 7 AD.
Posted on 12/24/24 at 6:38 pm to Dex Morgan
quote:The command is not to obey arbitrarily nor unconditionally.
Therein lies by biggest problem with religion. Commanding us to obey the government and pay taxes... No wonder 90% of folks around here are such sheep.
All governments are put in place by God for the civil good of all people and those governments and leaders will be held accountable to God for how they governed. That’s why they are to be obeyed.
However they are not to be obeyed unconditionally. If they command their people to disobey God’s law, then they usurp God’s authority and are not to be obeyed in those instances.
It sounds more like you have a problem with authority. I suggest you submit yourself to Jesus Christ, the God-man and King over all creation, trusting in His sacrifice for sin before it is too late.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 12:35 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Greek term for birth
Look at Matthew 2:1 in the Greek as an example. There’s about 50 different conjugations but you’ll notice the root is “genn” for born like to begat as in out of a vagina. The root for “made” or “manufactured” is “gen”. That’s transliterated Greek text into Latin script as this board doesn’t display Greek characters. Subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless and there are Strong’s concordance for each word that you can look up and research.
quote:
immaculate conception
This isn’t in the Bible. I don’t know how that would be written in Greek.
quote:
more importantly what was it in first century lexicon.
I don’t think anyone was talking about an immaculate conception in the first century or even in the 4th century. I think this is more of a Middle Ages invention.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 12:39 am to Dex Morgan
quote:
Therein lies by biggest problem with religion. Commanding us to obey the government and pay taxes... No wonder 90% of folks around here are such sheep.
So you think He should have recommended tax evasion instead?
Saying "follow the law" isn't the same as saying "support more government intervention."
This post was edited on 12/25/24 at 12:41 am
Posted on 12/25/24 at 2:00 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:Still speaking this lie?
The apostle Paul on the other hand wouldn’t have even agreed Jesus was ever born on earth. similar to John’s gospel when he comes down from heaven as an adult miracle slinging badass.
How was Jesus made of a woman as an adult? Was Paul not speaking of Jesus incarnation? Or are you claiming that Jesus was made of a woman in Heaven at some point in time? And if so, how?
You dismissed Paul’s commands regarding the Lord’s Supper, but who did Paul think betrayed Jesus that night? The Gospels speak of Judas as the betrayer on the night of the Supper in the upper room. Are you claiming the entire narrative of Jesus death—including the events leading up to it—all happened in Heaven rather than on earth?
When Paul contrasts Adam and Jesus, with Jesus being the second Adam, was he talking about Jesus being made, living, and dying all in Heaven rather than on earth?
What did Paul mean when he said that Jesus was a descendant from David “according to the flesh”? Did he not mean that Jesus was in the genetic lineage of David as Paul describes later in Romans in relation to Abraham?
When Paul said that the Jews killed Jesus and the Prophets, was he talking about the Jews and Prophets that were in Heaven, where the Jews killed Jesus?
When Paul spoke of Jesus being raised from the dead and appearing to the disciples and to 500 people after His death and burial, was Paul talking about events that took place in Heaven only?
It seems to me that what Paul teaches about Jesus’ humanity aligns perfectly with the rest of the Scriptures and that you are essentially taking one verse (1 Cor. 2:8) and making a completely different narrative when that verse can be easily reconciled with the rest of the plain teachings by recognizing that earthly agents and spiritual agents can work together on earth (like Satan possessing/influencing Judas) rather than assuming a ridiculous view that Jesus’ ministry was confined to Heaven.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 2:11 am to BasedAF
He became a refugee because of a baby killer, not unlike the liberal baby killers.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 3:19 am to BasedAF
But Jesus was a refugee…
Posted on 12/25/24 at 5:23 am to themunch
quote:
Merry Christmas.
Happy Holidays to you and yours!
Posted on 12/25/24 at 5:31 am to Drizzt
quote:
I always find it interesting that atheists try so hard to “prove” their beliefs to others.
Wait a minute. Earlier in this thread, a believer asked me "Does God exist?", and I responded "No."
Then HE demanded that I prove it. I was not trying to prove anything. He, the believer, demanded proof.
You guys need to make up your minds about how you expect atheists to behave. You cannot have it both ways.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 5:34 am to Strannix
quote:
In what logical sense was Jesus a refugee?
This is such a slam dunk.
Matthew 2, vs 13 and 14:
13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”[c]
Notice I underlined the word "escape"?
They had to escape from where they lived to Egypt to remain safe.
That is the very definition of a refugee.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 1:02 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Still speaking this lie?
He continuously spouts elementary-level arguments that have no basis in reality. It's not worth engaging with and I can't understand why people do.
This post was edited on 12/25/24 at 3:07 pm
Posted on 12/25/24 at 1:04 pm to sta4ever
quote:
But Jesus was a refugee…
Not in the way this commercial misleads people to believe.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 1:09 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
He continuously spouts elementary-level arguments that have no basis in reaity. It's not worth engaging with and I can't understand why people do.
He’s a Jesus mythicist. One of the most fringe of fringe academic theories as it relates to the Bible. Virtually no one, including anti-Christians like Bart Ehrman, believes that there wasn’t a historical Jesus.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 3:08 pm to MFn GIMP
quote:
Virtually no one, including anti-Christians like Bart Ehrman, believes that there wasn’t a historical Jesus.
Yep, it's a completely nonsensical viewpoint held by only the lowest of intellects. Elementary-level reasoning.
Someone would have just as much luck trying to reason with a toddler yelling "nuh uh!"
This post was edited on 12/25/24 at 3:11 pm
Posted on 12/25/24 at 11:34 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Still speaking this lie?
It is my legitimate truthful opinion based on what I have read from the Bible and also learned from scholarly and historical sources and commentaries that Paul believed Yahweh, who he called Kyrios and called the firstborn of creation by what he called Theos (Hebrew El Elyon), was given a real body made of human flesh in the highest heaven. They invented a secret plan that Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 2 to save mankind in some fashion, and the archons of this aeon in the lowest heaven didn’t know about the secret plan and killed Yahweh incarnate. After 3 days, El Elyon his father resurrected him and then bestowed on him a name above all others, Jesus, and highly exalted him and raised him back up to the 7th heaven to sit on his own throne at El’s right hand. That’s what I believe Paul really believed or claimed to believe.
I know you will think about Romans 1:18 onward. Paul wrote that God has shown himself to everyone even those who claim to not believe. Then why the frick did Paul even need to travel around preaching and trying to convert people. People are generally reasonable and need evidence to believe anything. If the evidence isn’t there, then it’s logical that some people won’t believe. Us atheists aren’t lying when we say we don’t believe in the Christian god. We legitimately don’t believe. God hasn’t made anything plain to us, and we sure as shite wouldn’t want to “reject” God and spend eternity in hell. We just simply don’t believe and I think you are insane if you can’t grasp that.
quote:
How was Jesus made of a woman as an adult? Was Paul not speaking of Jesus incarnation? Or are you claiming that Jesus was made of a woman in Heaven at some point in time? And if so, how?
“Made of woman” was a Greek idiom to mean “human”. I think he actually was speaking of Jesus’ incarnation. I also think the prevailing theology of Paul’s sect was that this body of flesh was made for Jesus in heaven.
There are parallel myths. In Zoroastrianism, the Saoshyant (their future Jesus-like savior) was supposed to be given a body of flesh made in heaven made of the sperm of Zoroaster (Zarathustra) that was preserved at the bottom of a lake. Of course, about all sane religious scholars secular and Jewish and Christian acknowledge Persian Zoroastrianism had a profound effect on the Abrahamic religions.
Another parallel myth: the “Ascension of Isaiah” found in Coptic, Latin, Greek, Slavonic, and Aramaic which was a prophetic work telling the tale of a future event where El Elyon would make a body of flesh from the sperm of David and “clothe” Yahweh in this fleshly body, send him down to the lowest heaven, and trick the devil and his minions into killing him. Then “the beloved” (Yahweh) would defeat death and be resurrected and defeat Satan. It very closely matches Paul’s theology.
quote:
You dismissed Paul’s commands regarding the Lord’s Supper, but who did Paul think betrayed Jesus that night?
Pay attention to Paul. He doesn’t mention Judas or any disciples… ever. Never mentions anything about any earthly ministry of Jesus… ever. When Paul writes “on the night he was betrayed”, realize that the word betrayed in Greek has multiple meanings. It also means “handed over”. Subtle difference, but I believe this refers to when El sent Yahweh in the flesh down to the lowest heaven to be killed.
quote:
The Gospels speak of Judas as the betrayer on the night of the Supper in the upper room. Are you claiming the entire narrative of Jesus death—including the events leading up to it—all happened in Heaven rather than on earth?
I don’t believe any of that happened in reality, but I believe Paul and the earliest Christians believe Jesus was killed in heaven by the other deities/angels/archons/rulers or whatever you want to call them. The reason I believe this is because Paul explicitly states that in 1 Corinthians 2, and we know the “rulers” are heavenly beings from Ephesians 6:12.
quote:
When Paul contrasts Adam and Jesus, with Jesus being the second Adam, was he talking about Jesus being made, living, and dying all in Heaven rather than on earth?
I don’t know. Interesting here is that Enochian Jews and later Christians believed Eden was in heaven. That’s why Adam “fell”. He fell from heaven to earth. Literally. In 1 Enoch, Eden is definitely described as being in heaven. That would make both Adam’s body and Jesus’ body both manufactured by El in heaven.
quote:
What did Paul mean when he said that Jesus was a descendant from David “according to the flesh”? Did he not mean that Jesus was in the genetic lineage of David as Paul describes later in Romans in relation to Abraham?
You and I both know the word used is NOT “descendant”. Paul said his body was manufactured of the sperm of David literally. Paul believed it was a very real human body.
quote:
When Paul said that the Jews killed Jesus and the Prophets, was he talking about the Jews and Prophets that were in Heaven, where the Jews killed Jesus?
Most secular scholars and historians do not believe the verses you referenced are authentically Pauline. Let’s take a look at them…
quote:
14For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
So Paul was a Jew. Do you believe it is reasonable to conclude that he actually wrote any of that? Would he use the term “the Jews” as if he wasn’t one himself? Would he say that “the Jews” displease God? Check out the last sentence… wrath has come upon “them” at last. It’s incredibly obvious that this is a much later Christian insertion into Paul’s letter and the wrath that had come upon “the Jews” “at last!” Was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70CE, about 15+ years after Paul died. So there’s no way Paul could have written that.
quote:
When Paul spoke of Jesus being raised from the dead and appearing to the disciples and to 500 people after His death and burial, was Paul talking about events that took place in Heaven only?
Thank you for the question. Burial and raised from the dead in Heaven. Appearing to the disciples and the 500… well why don’t you check what Paul wrote on the subject of his visions of Jesus. 2 Corinthians 12. Paul believed he was even taken up by an angel to the third heaven. I would say though that the visions whether they were on earth or heaven doesn’t matter and it may have been one or the other or both. In reality though they were all hallucinations.
quote:
It seems to me that what Paul teaches about Jesus’ humanity aligns perfectly with the rest of the Scriptures
I’m going to disagree. I think the gospel of Mark, the one that all the other ones copied from and used as a source to re-write and “correct” it, was the very first gospel and was created as a literary allegory. It might have even been a play of some sort. Like west side story is a recreation of Romeo and Juliet. I think Paul’s 7 legit letters plus Colossians, Ephesians, Hebrews, Jude, James, and 1 Clement are in alignment. 2 Thessalonians and the gospels and letters of “Peter” and “John” and to Titus are very different in their theology. In the second century, the letters of “John” and “Peter” even refer to the Pauline Christians as antichrists because they deny Jesus came to earth and that the gospels are cleverly devised myths.
Posted on 12/25/24 at 11:35 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
you are essentially taking one verse (1 Cor. 2:8) and making a completely different narrative when that verse can be easily reconciled with the rest of the plain teachings by recognizing that earthly agents and spiritual agents can work together on earth
Sure would have been nice if Paul ever would have mentioned Pontius Pilate or anything really that “happened” on earth. I can see why you might think what you do on this subject because of the link between heavenly beings and beings on earth. But for all the reasons I gave, I believe Paul believed Jesus was killed in heaven by the heavenly archons which is exactly what he literally wrote happened.
quote:
assuming a ridiculous view that Jesus’ ministry was confined to Heaven.
I don’t think Paul ever believed Jesus had a ministry. He never mentioned anything about it. It’s partly an argument from silence but partly not, since Paul says Jesus descended from the highest heaven in disguise only to be killed in heaven and resurrected and exalted up to the highest heaven. Paul never once mentions Jesus on earth or doing anything for other people like the gospels says he did.
ETA: one more thing: you know well Paul wrote that his gospel is not man’s gospel. You know he proclaimed to not have learned anything about Jesus from any man. Yet… he did meet with Peter and James. How in the hell could he meet with Peter and with James the brother of Kyrios and not learn anything about Jesus from them??? I’ll tell you. Because like Peter and James, Paul only “knew” Jesus from two methods.
1. Re-interpretation of Old Testament passages with “hidden meanings” of Jesus
2. Visions and Hallucinations
Galatians 1:11
quote:
For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:1
quote:
1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?
And the most beautiful excerpt that ties it all together is 1 Corinthians 15
quote:
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
In fact this was a Christian creed. A statement of faith recited by Paul and his congregations.
How did they know Jesus died? Was it stories of people? No, it was known in accordance with the (Old Testament) scriptures.
How did they know Jesus was buried and resurrected? Only from the scriptures.
Only after his resurrection did he ever appear to a human (allegedly
).This post was edited on 12/26/24 at 12:06 am
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