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Started By
Message
re: Lord’s Prayer opening may be ‘problematic’, says archbishop
Posted on 7/29/23 at 2:54 pm to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 7/29/23 at 2:54 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Like most religious people, you don’t even want to search for the truth and constantly learn, but rather you have ideas that you just want to believe regardless of the evidence.
Like most non-religious people, you don’t even want to search for the truth and constantly learn, but rather you have ideas that you just want to believe regardless of the evidence.
See how well that shoe fits either foot? We’re both searching for the truth; each with our own preconceived notion of what that truth is. Whether you realize it or not- you are searching for reasons to doubt, and I am searching for reasons to believe. We’re both finding exactly what we’re looking for. The interesting thing is, that your worldview requires that you dismiss believers as gullible kooks; yet the Biblical worldview accounts for, and accurately describes, both positions in great detail.
quote:
Evidence
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Lol. You have no evidence. You have opinions and conjecture.
quote:
Depends on your definition. Modern scholarship would consider the Trinity polytheistic, but a practicing Catholic or Baptist would not
We’re in agreement here. Two opposing worldviews oppose each other. Go figure.
quote:
It’s rooted from groups like the Essenes worshipping the father El Elyon, the son Yahweh, and divine mother spirit Asherah.
El Elyon (Lord Most High) and Yahweh (LORD, I Am) are both names for God. El being a more generic name, that was used by all peoples to describe their (false) gods in those days. YHWH being the proper name for the One True God as told to Moses. The Jews thought it improper for a sinful people to utter the LORD’s proper name, so they used other names such as Elohim, Adonai, and so on. God has over a thousand names in the Bible.
Asherah (or Ashtoreth), the Canaanite fertility (false) goddess, was the mother of Baal—the supreme Canaanite (false) god of fertility, sun, and storm. There are a ton of scriptures condemning the worship of Ashtoreth, and all other false gods for that matter. Whether or not the Essenes were polytheistic has no bearing on the validity of the Trinity- other than being one of many examples of how God’s own people have continually gone astray in one way or another.
quote:
Genesis 14:18-20 is one example of El Elyon (God Most High). He’s the highest God - stronger and more powerful and higher authority over… what or whom? Logically if there’s a highest god, there must be one or more lower gods.
Deuteronomy 32:17–18 (NASB95): “They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Whom your fathers did not dread.
18 “You neglected the Rock who begot you,
And forgot the God who gave you birth.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
quote:
Look at Deuteronomy 32:8 when El Elyon gave Israel to Yahweh as his inheritance. Who does one inherit something from typically? Their father.
Ummm… wut?
Deuteronomy 32:8 (NASB95): When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
When He separated the sons of man,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the sons of Israel.
The Most High gave the nations their inheritance- because He is the Father of all.
quote:
Look at who Solomon built altars to in the temple. Those were Jews worshipping all sorts of deities. All throughout the Bible there’s a constant theme of “don’t worship all those other gods except Yahweh” because they were already doing just that. You don’t tell a kid to stop reaching into the cookie jar if they’re not reaching for cookies.
Ah yes- Solomon. Perhaps the most interesting cautionary example of a man gone astray. He’s definitely one the people I would most like to have a conversation with.
1 Kings 11:3–7 (NASB95): He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away.
4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not follow the Lord fully, as David his father had done.
7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
Remembering…
Deuteronomy 32:17 (NASB95): “They sacrificed to demons who were not God,
To gods whom they have not known,
New gods who came lately,
Boy, Solomon really blew it, huh? I wouldn’t be surprised if he coined the term “p***y is undefeated.” It’s of the utmost importance, though, to remember that man’s inability to remain faithful to God- is only reflective of man’s need for God.
quote:
Look at Exodus 6:3. The lying scribe inserted text to say that Yahweh was really El Shaddai in order to conflate the two deities into one.
You mean Moses? Lol! Were you there? Looking over his shoulder? I think not. This looks like another case of what each of us would like to believe.
quote:
There were many beliefs of Christians
Indeed there were many beliefs- but only one truth. Paul warned us early and often about false gospels.
Galatians 1:8 (NASB95): But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
To be continued…
1
Posted on 7/29/23 at 2:55 pm to Squirrelmeister
Continued…
That’s quite a claim. Let’s explore these verses to see. This will take some time, and I might not be able to fit it all into one post- so forgive me if I take some shortcuts.
1 Corinthians 2:6–8 (NASB95): Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Verse 6 implies that there is a difference between what the apostles are speaking, vs what they are not. Let’s go back a bit.
1 Corinthians 2:4–5 (NASB95): and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Why? Because
1 Corinthians 2:2–3 (NASB95): For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
We’ll go to verse 8, as I assume this is where you think that demons killed Christ in Heaven. I can see how, if taken literally, one could conclude that demons crucified Him. And, in a sense, they did. They did it through human agents- such as Pilate, and the much maligned Pharisees.
Next-
Romans 1:3 (NASB95): concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Your extremely irreverent recitation of this verse is nothing more than an angry child’s way of saying that Jesus was a descendant of David- which was prophesied in the Old Testament. Jesus is of the lineage of David and Abraham- legally through Joseph, and by blood through Mary. The genealogies in Matthew and Luke bear this out.
Next
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NASB95): 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
I absolutely love this verse. What comfort it brings those who call Him LORD! But, it’s about the second coming. I fail to see the relevance of it to your post.
Next
Ephesians 6:12 (NASB95): For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ah yes. Truer words have never been spoken! This is perhaps the most difficult thing for Christians to bear and keep in mind. We want to blame the human agent- rather than the evil spirit that is driving the lost soul to dastardly deeds. I myself am often guilty of such. Yet, again I fail to see the relation to your claim here.
Next
Philippians 2:8–11 (NASB95): Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I included the preceding and following verses for context- and beauty.
I assume you are looking at verse 9 as a cause and effect scenario. When, in fact, God had predestined all of this for His own glory before the beginning of time (which He created). When read together, these verses better describe the cause and effect that God had prescribed for the salvation of His children.
Fortunately for us all, it is not up to me to define Christian. I know both Catholics and Protestants, who likely are, and some who likely are not, as well. May God have mercy on us all. Amen. I do know that…
Acts 20:29–30 (NASB95): I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
May God give us wisdom in regards to these things.
Pfft. Self refuting.
As the Bible is my preferred source of information on this topic, and that you refuse to accept the historicity of the Bible- I’m ok to agree to disagree on this. I don’t see a productive path forward for either of us. It is all personal belief-driven interpretation.
Right on brother. Neither of us can prove anything. But, logic dictates that only one of us is right. One would think that, if God wasn’t real, and the Bible was a man made means of controlling the population, that it would have been irrefutably debunked by now. After all, no one is claiming the legitimacy of the spaghetti monster. That would be as foolish as claiming that our very existence is a huge cosmic accident.
quote:
Jesus was an archangel who wore a body manufactured from the sperm of David and was killed by demons in heaven, and became “god’s son” only after being resurrected. 1 Cor 2:6-8. Romans 1:3, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Ephesians 6:12, Philippians 2:9, as but a few examples but not the only examples of this belief.
That’s quite a claim. Let’s explore these verses to see. This will take some time, and I might not be able to fit it all into one post- so forgive me if I take some shortcuts.
1 Corinthians 2:6–8 (NASB95): Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Verse 6 implies that there is a difference between what the apostles are speaking, vs what they are not. Let’s go back a bit.
1 Corinthians 2:4–5 (NASB95): and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Why? Because
1 Corinthians 2:2–3 (NASB95): For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
We’ll go to verse 8, as I assume this is where you think that demons killed Christ in Heaven. I can see how, if taken literally, one could conclude that demons crucified Him. And, in a sense, they did. They did it through human agents- such as Pilate, and the much maligned Pharisees.
Next-
Romans 1:3 (NASB95): concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Your extremely irreverent recitation of this verse is nothing more than an angry child’s way of saying that Jesus was a descendant of David- which was prophesied in the Old Testament. Jesus is of the lineage of David and Abraham- legally through Joseph, and by blood through Mary. The genealogies in Matthew and Luke bear this out.
Next
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NASB95): 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
I absolutely love this verse. What comfort it brings those who call Him LORD! But, it’s about the second coming. I fail to see the relevance of it to your post.
Next
Ephesians 6:12 (NASB95): For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ah yes. Truer words have never been spoken! This is perhaps the most difficult thing for Christians to bear and keep in mind. We want to blame the human agent- rather than the evil spirit that is driving the lost soul to dastardly deeds. I myself am often guilty of such. Yet, again I fail to see the relation to your claim here.
Next
Philippians 2:8–11 (NASB95): Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I included the preceding and following verses for context- and beauty.
I assume you are looking at verse 9 as a cause and effect scenario. When, in fact, God had predestined all of this for His own glory before the beginning of time (which He created). When read together, these verses better describe the cause and effect that God had prescribed for the salvation of His children.
quote:
So I guess it depends on your own definition of “true Christian”- maybe you mean only people with the exact same beliefs as you? Catholics aren’t Christian? That fully god and fully man stuff was argued about for 400 years and even to this day. Those are specific beliefs of some Christian groups. I think you’re being unfair with your definition of Christian.
Fortunately for us all, it is not up to me to define Christian. I know both Catholics and Protestants, who likely are, and some who likely are not, as well. May God have mercy on us all. Amen. I do know that…
Acts 20:29–30 (NASB95): I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
May God give us wisdom in regards to these things.
quote:
In 4 Ezra (apocryphal)
Pfft. Self refuting.
quote:
So what? The Egyptians had slaves of every single group they ever encountered. There’s no evidence for the exodus of the Israelites as a group that outnumbered the Egyptians all leaving Egypt simultaneously like portrayed in the Bible.
As the Bible is my preferred source of information on this topic, and that you refuse to accept the historicity of the Bible- I’m ok to agree to disagree on this. I don’t see a productive path forward for either of us. It is all personal belief-driven interpretation.
quote:
And you have no shred of evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. And leprechauns and the tooth fairy. You also have no positive evidence for the existence of a god.
Right on brother. Neither of us can prove anything. But, logic dictates that only one of us is right. One would think that, if God wasn’t real, and the Bible was a man made means of controlling the population, that it would have been irrefutably debunked by now. After all, no one is claiming the legitimacy of the spaghetti monster. That would be as foolish as claiming that our very existence is a huge cosmic accident.
Posted on 7/29/23 at 5:22 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:Well done.
Prodigal Son
Posted on 7/29/23 at 6:46 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Well done.
Thank you, sir. I have the utmost respect for your understanding of these matters.
Posted on 7/29/23 at 9:11 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
Like most non-religious people, you don’t even want to search for the truth and constantly learn, but rather you have ideas that you just want to believe regardless of the evidence.
You are projecting. It is you who admitted to giving the “benefit of the doubt” to the Bible. It is you who believe without evidence - your faith - because it’s all evidently untrue without evidence. Your search for “truth” to find anything to justify your scripture. My search for truth is to search for evidence and let the evidence speak for itself and take me down that road regardless of where it leads to. On this matter you couldn’t be further from the truth.
quote:
You have no evidence. You have opinions and conjecture.
I have evidence of biology, genetics, geology, archaeology, paleontology, evolution, and so on that contradict the Bronze Age and Iron Age explanations of nature. I know that the earth is a sphere, and that the concept of the flat earth with a glass-like firmament creating an “expanse” of the sky where the sun, moon, and stars live is utter nonsense. I understand that “god” doesn’t have storehouses of hail and lightning bolts to throw from heaven, and that those weather phenomena are natural, including rain which doesn’t fall down from heaven through windows in the firmament. I can understand birds are dinosaurs and humans are apes that came from earlier species (e.g. Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus, Homo Heidelbergensis and can view the DNA sequences and fossils to prove it. I have factual evidence to back up my world view. You do not. Again, you don’t understand what evidence is, yet you project your own ignorance.
quote:
El Elyon (Lord Most High) and Yahweh (LORD, I Am) are both names for God.
Two different gods. Did you read Psalm 82 and 89? It literally states there are many gods, and they are not “false gods”. Pay attention to what the LORD is doing to the other gods in context. How can you proclaim to believe the Bible when you don’t believe the words staring you in the face?
quote:
Deuteronomy 32:8 (NASB95): When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.
You are reading a very poor translation. I recommend the ESV for a better translation. At any rate if you want to know the original, you can’t use a translation of the Masoretic Text. If you use one like the ESV which uses the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls, you’ll understand that “sons of Israel” was an insertion/edit by a Jewish scribe who had a problem with the original… which states how Yahweh (the LoRD) inherited Israel from El Elyon (verse 9) because El Elyon had just divided the nations amongst his sons “sons of El” ending verse 8.
quote:
Ah yes- Solomon. Perhaps the most interesting cautionary example of a man gone astray. He’s definitely one the people I would most like to have a conversation with.
You ain’t gonna like this… but this guy didn’t actually exist. Sorry
quote:
You mean Moses?
Who didn’t write the Pentateuch and most likely didn’t exist either, and definitely did not lead the whole nation of Israel out of Egyptian slavery because they were never enslaved as a nation by Egypt in the first place.
quote:
Indeed there were many beliefs- but only one truth.
Assertions and allegations made without evidence that require faith should be dismissed without having to provide evidence of reasons for rejecting such allegations. Allegations require positive evidence, of which you have none.
quote:
Paul warned us early and often about false gospels.
Yes, and Peter, John, and “Jesus” even warned about false prophets and false gospels. Most of these authors were writing letters and making up stories as a way to counter the beliefs of others. The church accepted many of these contradictory letters and gospels as scripture. Just as an example, Paul says Jesus ransomed Jews from the Law, but “Jesus” says he didn’t come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. They agreed sometimes though - take that both expected that some of their followers would not experience death because the world was imminently ending.
quote:
Galatians 1:8 (NASB95): But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Paul would have accursed Mark, Matthew, John, Luke, the other John, Peter, etc. Simply look how Matthew’s Jesus says to keep the Law. Paul says the law is a curse and to not keep it.
Posted on 7/29/23 at 9:31 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:You never learn. You don't understand things that my kids understand because you are willfully blind. You twist the Scriptures, not even to fit something you believe to be true, but so that you can justify your lack of belief in the truth. You have to twist the Bible into teaching things that it doesn't actually teach (as I and others have spent hours showing you, over and over again) in order for you to cast it aside. You create straw men and then knock them down to feel better about your own position. You are lost, but I hope you repent and find the truth in Jesus Christ.
Squirrelmeister
Posted on 7/29/23 at 9:59 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
I can see how, if taken literally, one could conclude that demons crucified Him. And, in a sense, they did. They did it through human agents- such as Pilate, and the much maligned Pharisees.
Thank you. Paul literally states the “Rulers” are heavenly beings and that they killed Jesus. Foomanchoo would never admit that. I can see how you might think it was through human agents as you attempt to square the gospels with Paul’s letters. Funny how Paul never mentions any of the crucifixion stories of the gospels, including no mention of of the disciples or the Marys or anyone being present and no mention of Pilate or the Romans or Jews even being responsible for Jesus’ death. Well it’s not funny as I understand Paul wrote what he wrote decades before the “Jesus on Earth” gospels were made up.
quote:
Romans 1:3 (NASB95): concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Your extremely irreverent recitation of this verse is nothing more than an angry child’s way of saying that Jesus was a descendant of David
Your problem with NASB95 is that it’s a poor translation. Even my trusty ESV lets me down on this verse. For this I’m going to go to the KJV which actually gets it right.
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Check the Greek. “Seed” is a translation of “spermatos”. Sperm. It literally says Jesus’ body was manufactured of the sperm of David. There’s nothing in the Greek about being “born” nor of a “descendant” or David. I really suggest if you’re going to make arguments that you check the Greek and or Hebrew originals so that you can understand them better.
A parallel myth is the story of Zarathustra (Zoroaster) - when he died, some of his semen was kept by Ahura Mazda in a lake, and a virgin will one day bathe in the lake and become pregnant with their savior. There are parallel Greek myths as well.
quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NASB95): 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. I absolutely love this verse. What comfort it brings those who call Him LORD! But, it’s about the second coming. I fail to see the relevance of it to your post.
I was explaining to you how there were many different Christian beliefs. One was that Jesus was an archangel sent down from heaven. I guess you disagree? In case you don’t see it, let me explain. Pay close attention to words in bold.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel
There’s only one archangel. Also see Jude 9. This is why Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus was/is the archangel Michael. Paul calls Jesus the archangel. Jude calls the archangel Michael. Therefore Jesus equals Michael. We’d call that the commutative property in mathematics
. quote:
I assume you are looking at verse 9 as a cause and effect scenario. When, in fact, God had predestined all of this for His own glory before the beginning of time (which He created).
Good assumption because that’s what it literally says. Then you go about making up your own explanation that isn’t supported in the text.
quote:
Right on brother. Neither of us can prove anything.
Negative, chief. I can prove that most of the relevant material in the Bible is wrong, because I have the overwhelming preponderance of physical evidence on my side that… just for one example, that there was no global flood, and that the Noah myth is a ripoff of an earlier Sumerian myth. I know that the stars of heaven can’t fall from the sky to earth. I can’t prove a negative. Positive allegations require positive evidence, and any allegations without evidence can be dismissed for that reason. I can’t prove a god doesn’t exist nor can I prove leprechauns don’t exist, but without any evidence, I have no reason to believe in such figments of the imagination.
quote:
Bible was a man made means of controlling the population, that it would have been irrefutably debunked by now
It has been irrefutably debunked. An allegation made without evidence is not considered a refutation.
You know what the Romans did to prisoners they crucified? They left them on the cross to rot and to be eaten by scavenging dogs and buzzards. That was the main part of the punishment. An enemy of Rome would have been left to rot, and no one would have been permitted to take down any bodies. There was no empty tomb… hell Jesus wasn’t even out in the tomb. It’s very likely there was no historical Jesus.
quote:
That would be as foolish as claiming that our very existence is a huge cosmic accident.
Just because we don’t know how we got here isn’t proof that your particular anthropomorphic magic spirit in the sky created the cosmos. At one time people thought earthquakes were caused by God’s anger. We now know it to be caused by movement of tectonic plates. Droughts are caused by natural weather patterns. Plagues are actually caused by microscopic pathogens such as viruses and bacteria. Reminds me of Matthew 15
when Jesus says not to wash hands before eating because what you put in your mouth can’t hurt you… poor “Jesus” didn’t even know about germs. ETA: there’s a gospel that fits perfectly with Paul’s 7 legitimate letters. It’s called the Ascension of Isaiah. It describes how Jesus was an archangel, had a body made for him by god, went down through the layers of the heavens (from the 7th to the firmament) and is killed by demons in the sky. It doesn’t fit well the Mark through John so the church didn’t like it. You can get it on Amazon - it’s a translation mostly from old Coptic Egyptian but we know it’s legit as fragments were found in Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Slavonic that match. We know it was written around the time of Paul.
This post was edited on 7/29/23 at 10:07 pm
Posted on 7/29/23 at 10:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
my kids understand
I hope you give them a chance in life. They’re going to learn about science stuff like fossils and DNA. They’ll learn we actually made it out of Earth’s atmosphere. I hope you don’t tell them DNA is a tool of the devil, nor that going into space is impossible due to the firmament and the waters above the firmament.
I’m 3.7% Neanderthal. We have their fossils and bones and their DNA which we can positively show based on observational and repeatable evidence that those bones date to 40,000 - 200,000 years ago using radiometric dating and geologic dating methods. All tools of the devil, I presume, right?
I bet you homeschool them. Don’t want them actually learning anything useful to understand their reality. You’ll keep them in a false reality, until maybe one day they’ll wake up. Sad.
Posted on 7/30/23 at 12:12 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:I'm giving them a chance for eternal life, which is infintely more important than this life.
I hope you give them a chance in life.
Also, it's rather nonsensical for you to care about this life or any other from a rational standpoint given your atheistic worldview. If you took your worldview to its logical conclusion, you'd be a nihilist. There is no meaning in life from your presuppositions, and whatever meaning you make of it doesn't really matter anyway; it's not "right" or "wrong", so you're stuck with a hopeless void of a life. You can't rationally say that anyone should do anything, whether that is get an education, get a particular career, or believe any particular thing.
The fact that you act as if there is real purpose and meaning in this life, and that there are real "rights" and "wrongs" to hold yourself to just shows the bankruptcy of your worldview. You cannot possibly live consistently within it.
quote:They're learning everything I learned in school. You have no idea how this works, do you?
They’re going to learn about science stuff like fossils and DNA. They’ll learn we actually made it out of Earth’s atmosphere. I hope you don’t tell them DNA is a tool of the devil, nor that going into space is impossible due to the firmament and the waters above the firmament.
quote:tools of the devil? No. Based on faulty assumptions? Yes. I used the example before of the bathtub with a dripping faucet to illustrate the difference assumptions can make with conclusions. If you have the same faulty assumptions, your conclusions may be consistent, but they will be consistently wrong.
I’m 3.7% Neanderthal. We have their fossils and bones and their DNA which we can positively show based on observational and repeatable evidence that those bones date to 40,000 - 200,000 years ago using radiometric dating and geologic dating methods. All tools of the devil, I presume, right?
quote:Ironically, you have no basis for understanding reality in your worldview, and have to borrow from the Christian worldview to make sense of the world around you. You can't perform science without assumptions that stem from the Christian God. You can't use logic or think in terms of ethics without borrowing from the Christian worldview. You have no basis for epistemology in your atheistic framework.
I bet you homeschool them. Don’t want them actually learning anything useful to understand their reality. You’ll keep them in a false reality, until maybe one day they’ll wake up. Sad.
You make moral judgements about people who don't believe like you do, as if it's "wrong" to reject what you believe, yet your worldview--if you were consistent with it--would require you to abstain from judgement at all, since there would objectively be no right or wrong, and there is no better or worse way to go about life. See, you've bought into the lie that there are better and worse things to strive for in this world all while believing there is no real meaning or purpose to anything. Your worldview is entirely void of purpose and you continue to strive in futility to evangelize, contrary to what your worldview espouses. There is no meaning, yet you call on others to have meaning. There is no morality, yet you make moral judgements. You are a walking contradiction because you reject your creator.
You are a sinner in need of salvation. You need to repent of your sins against God and bend your knees in submission to the Lord of Glory, who gave Himself as a ransom for sinners. If you don't, you will one day be face to face with Christ, who will judge you as guilty of breaking God's law, and you will spend eternity suffering in everlasting darkness. Repent now.
Posted on 7/30/23 at 7:24 am to FooManChoo
quote:
it's rather nonsensical for you to care about this life or any other from a rational standpoint given your atheistic worldview.
Just the opposite. While Christianity for 2000 years has viewed this life as not mattering in favor of “the next life”, an atheist understands that this life is all we have, so we need to make the most of it.
quote:
The fact that you act as if there is real purpose and meaning in this life, and that there are real "rights" and "wrongs" to hold yourself to just shows the bankruptcy of your worldview.
The purpose of life is to make copies of ourselves. Atheist morality is far superior to that of ignorant racist slave-owning murdering ancient goat herders. You actually borrow morality from secular atheists, if you aren’t stoning adulterers and rebellious children.
quote:
tools of the devil? No. Based on faulty assumptions? Yes. I used the example before of the bathtub with a dripping faucet to illustrate the difference assumptions can make with conclusions.
Dumbass.
I’ll play. What are those faulty assumptions that the scientific method did not test and catch? Tell us how DNA is faulty and tell us where the firmament and the waters above the firmament are in relation to the rockets and people we’ve sent to outer space.
quote:
Ironically, you have no basis for understanding reality in your worldview, and have to borrow from the Christian worldview to make sense of the world around you. You can't perform science without assumptions that stem from the Christian God. You can't use logic or think in terms of ethics without borrowing from the Christian worldview.
Damn you people project your own ignorance. Science borrows literally zero from the Bible, Christian worldview, nor especially the Christian God because evidently he does not exist. The Muslims, ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and Chinese all figured out things using science and they didn’t use the Christian God either.
quote:
who gave Himself as a ransom for sinners.
Who is he ransoming from? When someone pays the ransom to get the people back from the bad guy, the kidnapper, who is the bad guy holding us hostage? Can’t wait to hear your retard logic.
Posted on 7/30/23 at 2:02 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Funny how Paul never mentions any of the crucifixion stories of the gospels, including no mention of of the disciples or the Marys or anyone being present and no mention of Pilate or the Romans or Jews even being responsible for Jesus’ death. Well it’s not funny as I understand Paul wrote what he wrote decades before the “Jesus on Earth” gospels were made up.
Any reference or teaching in the Pauline epistles about the cross, Jesus’s death, atoning sacrifice, hanging on a tree, the sinless Jesus crucified for the sins of others, his resurrection, all of it, on and on, are about the crucifixion of Jesus according to the gospel records.
Specifically respecting Pilate St. Paul instructs Timothy in maintaining a good witness and remaining faithful using Jesus’s example when he faced Pilate, the Roman Procurator, before he released a criminal and crucified Jesus for the Jews instead.
quote:
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1 Timothy 6:13
Next , St. Paul elaborates on the proper celebration of Holy Communion for the Corinthian believers (and for the rest of his Church) St. Paul recounts the Passover meal Jesus celebrated (with his disciples) the evening before he was handed over to be interrogated, tried, tortured, and be crucified the next day. Paul’s account quotes the gospel narrative of that Passover celebration that you maintain was invented years after Paul wrote his epistles.
quote:
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,
This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 15:23-25
I originally intended to address your misinformation more elaborately but I changed my mind.
Many people of good will have engaged with you in hopes of helping you along the path of enlightenment and righteousness that can only be found through Jesus Christ.
It’s evident to me given your intellect, your rhetorical skills, polemical legerdemain, and a vibe that pervades your posts that you’re consuming these well intentioned posts for your personal amusement and possibly self aggrandizement. Without intending offense, it’s starting to have a casting pearls feel to it. For that reason I can’t engage in this nonsense any longer. It’s not wise and appears meaningless to you.
Having written that I leave you with this:
quote:
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Posted on 7/30/23 at 2:23 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
Any reference or teaching in the Pauline epistles about the cross, Jesus’s death, atoning sacrifice, hanging on a tree, the sinless Jesus crucified for the sins of others, his resurrection, all of it, on and on, are about the crucifixion of Jesus according to the gospel records.
This is not even debated amongst the religious. Paul’s letters are not about the gospel records. His letters pre-date the four canonical gospels by 20 to 100 years.
quote:
Specifically respecting Pilate St. Paul instructs Timothy
Modern scholarly consensus is that Paul did not write the letter to Timothy. It is pseudo-graphical… a forgery.
quote:
the path of enlightenment and righteousness that can only be found through Jesus Christ.
Pure speculation due to lack of positive evidence for, but with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Let me leave you with this to ponder your path of enlightenment and righteousness.
Matthew 10:
34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Luke 14:
25Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Posted on 7/30/23 at 4:04 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:No, it's not the opposite. The logical conclusion of your worldview is that nothing has purpose and nothing ultimately matters in an real and objective sense. Your rejection of God removes all ability to provide true meaning and purpose in the world. All meaning and purpose is created by the individual mind, and therefore is nothing more than wishful thinking, but such "meaning" has no bearing on reality outside of the individual who simply hopes and wills himself towards a positive and meaningful approach to life, but it's entirely empty of reality and substance.
Just the opposite.
quote:1. It's not true that Christianity teaches that this life doesn't matter. We are supposed to live this life with the next life in mind, but not ignore this life or treat it as if it doesn't matter. That's more akin to the Gnostic view that the physical world is evil and we should aspire to rid ourselves of it in favor of the spiritual. No, we are supposed to live our lives on this earth for the service of mankind and the glory of God, because that is what we were created to do.
While Christianity for 2000 years has viewed this life as not mattering in favor of “the next life”, an atheist understands that this life is all we have, so we need to make the most of it.
2. the atheist has no "need" of anything because there is no "ought" in the atheist worldview. Believing that this life is all there is doesn't necessitate "making the most of it" at all. You can just as easily say that because this life is all there is, there's no point to anything and do or not do whatever you want, and have a purpose or no purpose, because nothing matters. In fact, that's the conclusion that atheist should most readily bring about, because it views humanity as nothing more than complex ants, who work away in futility until they die.
quote:That can certainly be your purpose in life, but it isn't the purpose of life. You speak as though there is an objective purpose in life (to carry on the species), but there is no objective obligation to do so in your worldview. You might personally feel better about that as your purpose, but that doesn't mean it is objectively right. In fact, there are many atheists who actually act consistently with their atheism and see life as meaningless, and decide that people should be killed off rather than reproduce and thrive. Many environmentalist atheists support the destruction of humanity in favor of a thriving planet. Many atheists believe that only the most genetically superior of the human species should continue on and see no problem in killing off large portions of the human race to achieve that goal. Are they wrong? According to your worldview, they can't be wrong because there is no "wrong" in a meaningful sense.
The purpose of life is to make copies of ourselves.
quote:It's logically inconsistent for you to say that there are objectively superior and inferior moral standards as an atheist. As an atheist, you must necessarily reject objective moral reasoning and embrace moral relativism where the only morality there is comes from within the human mind and experience. Because there are billions of people with their own unique flavors of morality and no objective standard to point to in order to say which moral interpretations are "right" and which are "wrong", you have to conclude that there is no objective right and wrong; there is only personal preference and opinion.
Atheist morality is far superior to that of ignorant racist slave-owning murdering ancient goat herders.
So again, you cannot say that atheistic morality (as if there was one standard that all atheists adhere to) is "superior" to the Biblical morality of God's moral character because you have no objective standard to compare your standard and mine to in order to make such a judgement.
So here is the rub for you: in order to be logically consistent with your atheistic presuppositions, you must conclude that there are no moral absolutes, and that no moral standard is objectively better than another, and in having that realization, you cannot say that the atheist morality is superior to any other.
quote:Not at all. My moral standard comes from an objective source in God, the creator of all things, and whose holy character is the standard for goodness. I have to evaluate my thoughts, words, and actions and compare them to God's moral law to know whether or not I'm acting rightly or wrongly. At the same time, I can evaluate the actions of others to that same standard and know if they are acting right and wrongly, and because I have an objective standard--that comes from outside of the subjective human experience, with obligations associated with it--I can make judgements to say something is objectively moral or immoral.
You actually borrow morality from secular atheists, if you aren’t stoning adulterers and rebellious children.
How can you claim I borrow from the atheist (which ones, in particular, since atheism doesn't have an objective moral code for me to borrow from?) when there is nothing to borrow from, other than irrationality and hopeless despair?
On the other hand, the atheist borrows from the Christian by trying to make meaningful moral judgements when his worldview won't allow him to do that. You have done it in this post: you have made a moral judgement, condemning the Bible for actions you view as objectively wrong or immoral, even though your worldview can't account for objective morality. You are acting inconsistently with your own professed worldview, making you think and act irrationally. You have to borrow the Christian morality that condemns murder, for instance, in order to judge God for being "immoral" for killing people (even though you don't understand what God does isn't murder). As an atheist, you shouldn't be applying your morality to anyone else or expecting others to apply their morality to you, because you should realize that in your worldview, morality is entirely subjective and nothing more than personal opinions which shouldn't mean anything to anyone outside of the person who holds that opinion.
So you see, you are the one borrowing morality when you make any moral judgements at all. You borrow from the Christian worldview by pretending there is an objective standard of morality to use to condemn others.
quote:You assume naturalistic materialism and uniformitarianism, to start with.
I’ll play. What are those faulty assumptions that the scientific method did not test and catch? Tell us how DNA is faulty and tell us where the firmament and the waters above the firmament are in relation to the rockets and people we’ve sent to outer space.
quote:Only the Christian worldview provides the necessary preconditions for intelligibility in science, mathematics, and morality (for starters) to make sense of the world around us. The Muslims, Egyptians, Greeks, etc. had to use assumptions that are only founded in the Christian worldview to make sense of the world, since their own worldviews and religions couldn't provide those foundational presuppositions. The atheist is in the same boat.
Science borrows literally zero from the Bible, Christian worldview, nor especially the Christian God because evidently he does not exist. The Muslims, ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and Chinese all figured out things using science and they didn’t use the Christian God either.
quote:Not "who", but "what". We are slaves to sin. Jesus releases the bonds of sin and sets us free from its penalty (eternal damnation) to obedience and everlasting life.
Who is he ransoming from? When someone pays the ransom to get the people back from the bad guy, the kidnapper, who is the bad guy holding us hostage? Can’t wait to hear your retard logic.
Posted on 7/30/23 at 4:09 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:I've identified a pattern with you. You try to twist the Bible to make it contradict itself, and then when you are refuted, you try to dismiss the Bible, itself.
Squirrelmeister
Which is it? Are you going to argue from the Christian Bible or not? You can't have it both ways.
One more thing: Paul doesn't have to have the gospel writings in front of him to know what was taught by Jesus. The gospels were written to recount what Jesus did and said for the sake of preserving the truth. Those accounts weren't created out of thin air after Paul was writing his epistles. Paul, John, and the other gospel writers were drawing from the same source of truth.
Posted on 7/30/23 at 6:15 pm to Smeg
Look at his face. That’s pedoface
Posted on 7/30/23 at 7:34 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You try to twist the Bible to make it contradict itself
Try? To make it contradict itself? You’re a fool if you can’t see it for yourself.
Twist? By quoting your scripture? You’re the one to “interpret” it to make it mean what it doesn’t say.
I may post multiple contradictory passages but I’m never twisting. Never.
So hey, what do you believe are the Homo Neanderthalensis, Denisovan, and Erectus bones and DNA that scientists have found, analyzed, dated, and sequenced? What about Homo Ergaster, Homo Habilis, and the Australopithecus and Paranthropus fossils? I’m genuinely curious what you think those are if you don’t believe those are extinct earlier hominem species. You’re a geologist and paleontologist and geneticist. Where did those other scientists get it wrong?
This post was edited on 7/30/23 at 7:40 pm
Posted on 7/30/23 at 9:02 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:Yes, you try to twist Scripture to make it contradict itself, because it doesn't contradict itself. I've shown you time and time again where these alleged "contradictions" aren't contradictions at all when interpreted in light of their context.
Try? To make it contradict itself? You’re a fool if you can’t see it for yourself.
quote:You cherry-pick verses and even interpret the Bible based on things not even in the Bible to import your own meanings and interpretations into the Bible that aren't naturally there, and then you call those contradictions.
Twist? By quoting your scripture? You’re the one to “interpret” it to make it mean what it doesn’t say.
A true contradiction is one that cannot logically be resolved. What you're actually talking about is a paradox (at least in your own mind), where there is an apparent contradiction, but not an actual contradiction. That's why study is needed to clarify and resolve the paradox.
You simply reject the clarifications because you want the Bible to contradict itself so that you can be justified in your rebellion against the God you know who will judge you if He exists (He does and He will, if you do not repent).
quote:You actually refuse to let the Bible interpret itself but require it to mean whatever it is that you want it to mean, ignoring the context altogether.
I may post multiple contradictory passages but I’m never twisting. Never.
quote:Interpretations based on already assumed evolutionary beliefs. All of those examples are either distinctinctly human or distinctly non-human animals.
So hey, what do you believe are the Homo Neanderthalensis, Denisovan, and Erectus bones and DNA that scientists have found, analyzed, dated, and sequenced? What about Homo Ergaster, Homo Habilis, and the Australopithecus and Paranthropus fossils? I’m genuinely curious what you think those are if you don’t believe those are extinct earlier hominem species. You’re a geologist and paleontologist and geneticist. Where did those other scientists get it wrong?
But all these supposed "gotchas" are besides the point, because your entire way of thinking is arbitrary and irrational in your own worldview which cannot account for inductive reasoning, laws of logic, immaterial laws at all, uniformity in nature, among other things necessary to use science. You have to borrow from the Christian worldview in order to know anything. I've noticed that you have chosen not to respond to any of that explanation.
This post was edited on 7/30/23 at 10:11 pm
Posted on 7/30/23 at 10:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Interpretations based on already assumed evolutionary beliefs. All of those examples are either distinctinctly human or distinctly non-human animals.
So which ones are distinctly human versus non human? Where do you draw the line? Did any of them involve from the earlier version? Did modern humans evolve from any of them or some common ancestor species?
quote:
You have to borrow from the Christian worldview in order to know anything.
Nah, I’m positive there’s no firmament, and outer space is not filled with water, and I’m sure the earth isn’t flat and isn’t the center of the universe. I know that the rainbow is light refraction through water and is not a special sign that your false god shows regret and promises never again to kill everyone and everything in a global flood (which never actually happened). Do you realize how pitiful your arguments are?
Posted on 7/31/23 at 10:45 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:Homo Neanderthalensis = human
So which ones are distinctly human versus non human?
Homo Denisovan = human
Homo Erectus = human
quote:Where a "sub species" of humans can breed with other humans to create more humans.
Where do you draw the line?
quote:Probably Erectus was just a human being that diverged after Babel as populations became isolated and variations occurred.
Did any of them involve from the earlier version?
quote:Humans are humans. There are differences in groups of modern humans today just like there were differences between groups of human kinds in the past, but humans did not "evolve" from non-humans, like an ape or chimpanzee, through some ancestor.
Did modern humans evolve from any of them or some common ancestor species?
quote:Why do you assume that description of creation was maintained for forever (out space wasn't filled with water at any point from the Bible's description)? Whatever that firmament was, it likely dissipated during the flood when "the windows of the heavens were opened" (Gen. 7:11).
Nah, I’m positive there’s no firmament, and outer space is not filled with water
quote:I'm sure about that, too. While I know some people believe the earth is flat and believe in geocentrism, there is no biblical reason to believe those things must be the case. I don't believe the earth is flat, nor that it must be the center of the universe (though there are some arguments for why that could be the case, though, I just don't see why it must be the case).
and I’m sure the earth isn’t flat and isn’t the center of the universe.
quote:I agree that the rainbow is light refraction through water, however that doesn't mean that it isn't also a sign of God's promise of mercy. Jesus took the bread and the wine used in Passover and re-established them as signs of His death for sin. God took water being poured over a person and made it a sign of baptism and a seal of God's promises of salvation for those who trust in Him by faith; it's not as if washing with water never occurred before.
I know that the rainbow is light refraction through water and is not a special sign that your false god shows regret and promises never again to kill everyone and everything in a global flood.
quote:I'm still waiting for you to show what my arguments actually are. So far you've thrown a lot of strawmen at me and claimed that those are my arguments.
Do you realize how pitiful your arguments are?
And I'm still waiting for you to address my actual argument about the futility and foolishness of atheism in relation to epistemology and morality on top of everything else. You haven't even attempted to touch my claim that you have no rational bases for using immaterial concepts like laws of logic in your materialistic worldview, or your ability to make "objective" moral judgements without a basis for objective moral reasoning.
Do you use philosophy to argue at all?
Posted on 7/31/23 at 10:57 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Paul’s letters are not about the gospel records.
Perhaps I was unclear. That’s absolutely on me.
The Pauline epistles are not precisely “about” the gospels. When he uses terms like “ the cross, Jesus’s death, atoning sacrifice, hanging on a tree, the sinless Jesus crucified for the sins of others, his resurrection, all of it”, he is referring to the events that are recorded in the synoptic gospels not necessarily the gospels themselves.
quote:
His letters pre-date the four canonical gospels by 20 to 100 years.
According to most credible scholars (am I doing this right?) the gospels are all written between 50 and 90 AD, John’s gospel being the later, maybe 20 years later than Matthew, Mark, and Luke, all of which most certainly pre-date 70 AD, possibly by as much as 20 years.
The Pauline epistles were written between 50 AD and 68 AD.
Your assertion of that Paul’s letters predate the gospels by 20-100 years looks like this.
50-90 gospels
50-68 Paul’s epistles
In the worst case, using an early Pauline epistle dated 50 AD and a dating of John’s gospel of, say, 90 AD the spread there is only 40 years, not the 100 years you claim, in fact you’re off by 60 years. Granting a later date for Paul’s writings, say 5 years, calling it 55 AD and a later date for John’s gospel, say 95 AD, you’re off by 50 years.
Regarding Paul’s writings and the synoptic gospels, there’s no hard credible case to be made that, in some scenarios, Paul’s epistles and gospel copies were not passing each other in the mail so to speak.
I worry some readers will believe your agenda driven nonsense and will use it to avoid dealing personally with the historical birth, life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as recorded and explained in the New Testament and the eternal consequences of casually dismissing Jesus Christ based on your recommendations.
I also worry for you for the very same reason.
quote:
“It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”
Luke 17:2
I’m also hoping that many of the well intentioned posters who respond to you in hopes of saving your soul will begin to recognize what they’re really dealing with.
I will pray for you Squirrelmeister, that Jesus Christ, the great bishop of our souls will have mercy on you, deliver you from all your sins, and bring you into his everlasting kingdom.
MM
This post was edited on 7/31/23 at 12:51 pm
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