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Message
re: Milo on Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Scientists, Mormons, etc
Posted on 12/6/24 at 11:43 am to Stitches
Posted on 12/6/24 at 11:43 am to Stitches
quote:What do you think the "keys" do? Are they separate from binding and loosing? They are paired with the binding and loosing in Matt. 16 and then the binding and loosing are given to the disciples as a group in Matt. 18.
All disciples were given the power to bind and lose, but scripture shows that Peter, and only Peter, was given the keys.
1
Posted on 12/6/24 at 11:44 am to Guntoter1
quote:Apology accepted and thank you. I was honestly just very confused.
I am sorry
I was mistaken
You did in fact say faithful not faith.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 11:47 am to JellyRoll
I find it amusing how some folks take jabs at Catholicism while ignoring all the various Prot 3 ring circuses out there.
Y’all gave the world snake handling churches and mega church pastors so awful they became the inspiration behind a pro wrestling heel. That’s just a couple of things off the top of my head. Maybe direct that energy into getting your own people sorted out.
Y’all gave the world snake handling churches and mega church pastors so awful they became the inspiration behind a pro wrestling heel. That’s just a couple of things off the top of my head. Maybe direct that energy into getting your own people sorted out.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:03 pm to FooManChoo
You know nothing about what Catholics do and believe, it is so obvious. We proclaim the Gospel, we confess our sin to God, a Priest, and those we have wronged. I’m not even going to broch the subject of The Blessed Mother with you again, because I have done so several times and you don’t seem to understand
Catholics proclaim the Gospel in a few ways:
• During Mass
A priest or deacon proclaims the Gospel during Mass by reading a passage from the Bible, usually from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Before the Gospel is read, the congregation responds "Glory to you O Lord" and makes a sign of the cross over their forehead, lips, and heart.
• Sharing the Gospel
Catholics can also share the Gospel by telling stories, sharing their own testimony, or pointing out how God is at work in people's lives. Some tips for sharing the Gospel include:
• Starting with prayer
• Knowing your audience
• Using scripture
• Sharing the good news
• Calling people to faith in Christ
• Being gracious and talking about topics that are kind, sensitive, and wholesome
Are you aware of the Act of Confession and Penance? Probably not because you don’t think Catholics do it. After we confess our sins to God and our Priest we are asked to perform the acts of penance.
An act of penance is an action or set of actions that are performed as a way to repent for sins. It can also refer to the sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession, which is practiced in the Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches.
Some examples of penance include:
• Giving up sin
• Praying
• Fasting
• Doing good works
• Giving alms
• Abstaining
• Carrying out duties
• Reading deeply
• Apologizing to an injured party
• Healing family divisions
The purpose of penance is to enrich life, not diminish it. The penance is meant to make up for past sins and help the penitent start a new life. The penance should be appropriate to the nature and seriousness of the sins.
The Act of Contrition is a Christian prayer that expresses sorrow for sins. It can be used in a liturgical service or privately, especially during an examination of conscience.
quote:
Not at all. I don't judge the heart, but Christians can certainly judge actions. We are called to proclaim the gospel of salvation to the world. Such a proclamation is an inherent judgement because it says that their lack of the gospel is wrong and that they will be judged by God with damnation if they do not turn to Christ by faith.
Catholics proclaim the Gospel in a few ways:
• During Mass
A priest or deacon proclaims the Gospel during Mass by reading a passage from the Bible, usually from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Before the Gospel is read, the congregation responds "Glory to you O Lord" and makes a sign of the cross over their forehead, lips, and heart.
• Sharing the Gospel
Catholics can also share the Gospel by telling stories, sharing their own testimony, or pointing out how God is at work in people's lives. Some tips for sharing the Gospel include:
• Starting with prayer
• Knowing your audience
• Using scripture
• Sharing the good news
• Calling people to faith in Christ
• Being gracious and talking about topics that are kind, sensitive, and wholesome
quote:
Christians are supposed to confess sins to one another and repent to one another. This assumes judgement of some kind. The elders of the Church are to administer discipline, which is judgement. Calling people to repentance for sin is not judging the heart but judging the actions
Are you aware of the Act of Confession and Penance? Probably not because you don’t think Catholics do it. After we confess our sins to God and our Priest we are asked to perform the acts of penance.
An act of penance is an action or set of actions that are performed as a way to repent for sins. It can also refer to the sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession, which is practiced in the Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches.
Some examples of penance include:
• Giving up sin
• Praying
• Fasting
• Doing good works
• Giving alms
• Abstaining
• Carrying out duties
• Reading deeply
• Apologizing to an injured party
• Healing family divisions
The purpose of penance is to enrich life, not diminish it. The penance is meant to make up for past sins and help the penitent start a new life. The penance should be appropriate to the nature and seriousness of the sins.
The Act of Contrition is a Christian prayer that expresses sorrow for sins. It can be used in a liturgical service or privately, especially during an examination of conscience.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:10 pm to hawgfaninc
All religions are cults. Some are just more socially accepted than others. It’s just another tool to divide people and distract them.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:13 pm to UncleLogger
quote:Speaking for myself, I don't ignore those. It's a shame that Christ's Church should be reproached because so many "pastors" are self-seeking rather than serving Christ and His flock according to the Scriptures.
I find it amusing how some folks take jabs at Catholicism while ignoring all the various Prot 3 ring circuses out there.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
No, Christ gave this power to Peter. Here is the scripture.
According to the Bible, Jesus told Peter that he was the "rock" upon which the church would be built in Matthew 16:18. The verse reads, "And I say to you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.".
You say that because Rome teaches that. I'm talking about Scripture, not tradition.
I quoted scripture in my post, not tradition, you seem to not want to believe it, but go look it up!
Likewise, post me the scripture where Christ tells his disciples they all are the rock on which his Church shall be built.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:29 pm to BamaMamaof2
I'll start by saying that the post I made that you were quoting from was more or less talking about the place of judgement within the Christian life. There is a place for it and I was attempting to explain what that looks like.
In my many years, I've found something that's very common with Roman Catholics. There is almost a different language within Catholicism that is used that equivocates meanings of words and ideas, like the combining of justification and sanctification. I believe this is true for the gospel, as well. You mean something different than I do.
And just to repeat, we are not to judge souls. That is a job for Christ alone. However, we can judge actions according the standard of God's word.
I won't get into the disagreement I have with the Catholic practices you mentioned at this time. I just wanted to highlight that my post wasn't anti-Catholic in substance regarding judgement, though it was in regards to Mary.
quote:There is a lot I don't know about Catholicism because there has been so much written about what the RCC teaches that I haven't read, however I have engaged Catholics for a long time and have read and engaged with enough material that I understand many of the core beliefs and teachings. Those things are what I'm discussing.
You know nothing about what Catholics do and believe, it is so obvious.
In my many years, I've found something that's very common with Roman Catholics. There is almost a different language within Catholicism that is used that equivocates meanings of words and ideas, like the combining of justification and sanctification. I believe this is true for the gospel, as well. You mean something different than I do.
quote:While I disagree that what you proclaim is the gospel, I'll assume it is for the moment for the sake of argument. What you quoted me saying was not about Catholicism in particular but about the role of judgement in the Church, including judging other beliefs. In order to say something is good or bad, you have to make a judgement. When you say you must do something, it is to judge that thing as good and necessary and to not do it is bad and wrong. My point was that even the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ is a judgement against false beliefs that do not trust in Christ for their salvation.
We proclaim the Gospel, we confess our sin to God, a Priest, and those we have wronged.
quote:It's possible that I really don't understand, but I don't think that's the case. I've been in many of these discussions (as you alluded to) and am quite aware of what official Catholic doctrine teaches. I'm speaking against reality, though; what is actually done in practice, in addition to the actual teachings that are unbiblical.
I’m not even going to broch the subject of The Blessed Mother with you again, because I have done so several times and you don’t seem to understand
quote:I don't deny that Catholics do the things you listed. That wasn't the point of what my post was about. Again, I was just demonstrating how Christians "judge" others even through the proclamation of the gospel, because in order to say one must be saved by Jesus is to judge that someone not in union with Christ is "wrong" and on the path to damnation. That's judgement.
Catholics proclaim the Gospel in a few ways:
quote:I'm aware. My post wasn't actually talking about Catholics in particular but that Christians as a people are to "judge". Confession of sin was an example of that judgement. We judge sin in ourselves and others and repent or call others to repentance. That's judgement.
Are you aware of the Act of Confession and Penance? Probably not because you don’t think Catholics do it. After we confess our sins to God and our Priest we are asked to perform the acts of penance.
And just to repeat, we are not to judge souls. That is a job for Christ alone. However, we can judge actions according the standard of God's word.
I won't get into the disagreement I have with the Catholic practices you mentioned at this time. I just wanted to highlight that my post wasn't anti-Catholic in substance regarding judgement, though it was in regards to Mary.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:30 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What do you think the "keys" do?
In this case, the "keys" are a reference to those given to the Royal Steward in the Davidic Kingdom in Isaiah 22 who was given all of the King's authority when the King was away.
So, in Matthew 16, Christ is making a deliberate allusion to Isaiah 22:15-24:
This says the Lord God: “Go, say to this steward, to Shebna the palace administrator: I will depose you from your office, and you will be ousted from your position... In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.
So Christ is establishing Peter particularly as His steward or vicar.
Binding and loosing is an OT phrase for a rabbi forbidding or allowing a practice to his followers. So in addition to tracking Isaiah, He's giving Peter the teaching role of a rabbi. In the following chapters He gives the other apostles that role as well, but only Peter is given the keys, just like how in the OT only the royal steward is given the keys.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:38 pm to hawgfaninc
I’ve been around nearly all of the Protestant sects and Catholics and am actually a non-believer.
I will say that Catholics are very level headed but very defensive if you challenge them. However, they don’t judge one tenth as hard as all the other Protestant spin offs.
My sister was banned from volunteering at a church because she was living with her fiancée before they got married.
The priest who married my wife and I didn’t even care that I was a non-Catholic with a child from a previous relationship. He was just glad I was there and agreeing to let my wife raise our future kids as Catholics.
I will say that Catholics are very level headed but very defensive if you challenge them. However, they don’t judge one tenth as hard as all the other Protestant spin offs.
My sister was banned from volunteering at a church because she was living with her fiancée before they got married.
The priest who married my wife and I didn’t even care that I was a non-Catholic with a child from a previous relationship. He was just glad I was there and agreeing to let my wife raise our future kids as Catholics.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 12:56 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:You did quote Scripture, and I interpreted that Scripture according to other Scripture. Since all Scripture is God-breathed, it cannot be in contradiction. Therefore, we are to interpret Scripture according to Scripture and interpret the less clear by the more clear. That's what I was doing.
I quoted scripture in my post, not tradition, you seem to not want to believe it, but go look it up!
The "tradition" I was referring to wasn't the quotation you provided, but the application of the quotation, which is driven from tradition.
quote:"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." -Ephesians 2:19-22
Likewise, post me the scripture where Christ tells his disciples they all are the rock on which his Church shall be built.
The people of God are the Church, and the Church was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ being the cornerstone of the foundation.
Peter is one of the apostles that was the foundation of the Church, for sure.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:00 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I'll start by saying that the post I made that you were quoting from was more or less talking about the place of judgement within the Christian life. There is a place for it and I was attempting to explain what that looks like.
I quoted scripture and you denied it saying it was Catholic tradition.
quote:
In my many years, I've found something that's very common with Roman Catholics. There is almost a different language within Catholicism that is used that equivocates meanings of words and ideas, like the combining of justification and sanctification. I believe this is true for the gospel, as well. You mean something different than I do.
You said we have a problem proclaiming the Gospel, I showed you how we do it, and now you say the "Gospel" in your Faith is different from the Gospels in the Bible that read from at every Mass? And you still state we don't proclaim the Gospel, you say this because you think you know more about Faith than anyone else. Jesus told us to be humble like a child, do you really think you are doing as Christ told us to do?
You said Catholics only confess their sins, but take no action. Again I showed you how we repent for a our with many acts, but you again choose to believe what you want in the face of our doctrine.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:04 pm to Stitches
quote:Let's examine the quote from Isaiah for a second. Here's the isolated text in question: "I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open."
In this case, the "keys" are a reference to those given to the Royal Steward in the Davidic Kingdom in Isaiah 22 who was given all of the King's authority when the King was away.
So, in Matthew 16, Christ is making a deliberate allusion to Isaiah 22:15-24:
This says the Lord God: “Go, say to this steward, to Shebna the palace administrator: I will depose you from your office, and you will be ousted from your position... In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.
So Christ is establishing Peter particularly as His steward or vicar.
Binding and loosing is an OT phrase for a rabbi forbidding or allowing a practice to his followers. So in addition to tracking Isaiah, He's giving Peter the teaching role of a rabbi. In the following chapters He gives the other apostles that role as well, but only Peter is given the keys, just like how in the OT only the royal steward is given the keys.
Here, the key and the authority that goes with it is described in terms of opening and closing. Here's the passage in Matt. 16:
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
As you pointed out, this is very similar language. There is mention of a key, or keys, and then immediately followed by opening and closing, or binding and loosing. Clearly the binding/loosing and opening/closing is directly related to the keys, themselves, and the authority the key-holder has to do those things.
This was my point in asking what the keys do, because you seemed to be differentiating between the keys and the binding and loosing, as if those were unrelated things. The language of both Isaiah and Matthew indicate that they are not unrelated, but that the binding/loosing and opening/closing are related to the keys, themselves, and the authority to perform those things by the keys.
This is important because if the keys and the binding and loosing in Matthew 16 are related and even necessarily connected (the one who holds the keys has the authority to bind and loose), then in Matthew 18 when Jesus is speaking to all His disciples, He is telling them that they all have the authority to bind and loose, which implies that they, too, have the keys which grants them the authority to do the binding and loosing.
This post was edited on 12/6/24 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:06 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." -Ephesians 2:19-22
You are putting a quote written from Paul in Epesians above what is written in the Holy Gospels from the mouth of Jesus himself. I put the word of Jesus above all other.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:17 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
This is important because if the keys and the binding and loosing in Matthew 16 are related and even the necessarily connected (the one who holds the keys has the authority to bind and loose), then in Matthew 18 when Jesus is speaking to all His disciples, He is telling them that they all have the authority to bind and loose, which implies that they, too, have the keys which grants them the authority to do the binding and loosing.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're agreeing that Peter was given the keys in a unique sense in Matthew 16, but that later in Matthew 18 we see that the "power" associated with the keys is given to all of the Apostles, indicating that they too must have been given the keys. Is that a fair analysis?
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:18 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:If you're referring to the "keys" quotation, I addressed that in another post. The thread of posts and responses that I was talking about here is specific to judgement.
I quoted scripture and you denied it saying it was Catholic tradition.
quote:I think you're not following me. Mixing post threads isn't helping, but I'll try to clarify.
You said we have a problem proclaiming the Gospel, I showed you how we do it, and now you say the "Gospel" in your Faith is different from the Gospels in the Bible that read from at every Mass? And you still state we don't proclaim the Gospel, you say this because you think you know more about Faith than anyone else. Jesus told us to be humble like a child, do you really think you are doing as Christ told us to do?
In this particular thread of posts you and I are responding to each other in, I was referring to judgement and how Christians are to make judgements, including judging other faiths/religions. I showed this by saying the proclamation is a judgement, as it is saying what is right (trusting in Jesus for salvation) and what is wrong (continuing in sin and unbelief) and judging a person to be wrong or sinful and in need of salvation through the gospel. That's all I was saying and it wasn't Catholic-specific. I wasn't specifically talking about how I believe Rome teaches a false gospel. I can pivot to that if you'd like but that wasn't what my post about judgement was about.
quote:There seems to be a pattern here. I'm being accused of something that I have no memory of doing.
You said Catholics only confess their sins, but take no action. Again I showed you how we repent for a our with many acts, but you again choose to believe what you want in the face of our doctrine.
Can you please quote for me my own words where I said Catholics only confess their sins, but take no action? I'd like to understand this accusation against me because going through this thread, I didn't see it.
I think what's happening is that I was talking broadly about the necessity of judgement within the context of Christianity and you interpreted my words to be an attack on Catholicism, as if there is no preaching of a gospel message nor a call to repentance for sin. I wasn't saying that at all.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:23 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:Is the Gospel of Matthew Scripture? Is Paul's letter to the Ephesians Scripture?
You are putting a quote written from Paul in Epesians above what is written in the Holy Gospels from the mouth of Jesus himself. I put the word of Jesus above all other.
If the answer to both of those questions is "yes", then I'll point you to what Paul said in 2 Tim. 3: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
If Matthew and Ephesians are both Scripture, then they are both equally authoritative because they both come from the inspiration of God and cannot contradict each other (because God cannot lie). There is no saying one passage is more authoritative than the other because they are both God's word. What you're doing is favoring the words written in Matthew over the words written in Ephesians in your comment and I urge you not to do that.
You can disagree with my use of the text and say that it doesn't apply if you wish, but you can't say that one is more Scripture than the other.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:26 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:
You are putting a quote written from Paul in Epesians above what is written in the Holy Gospels from the mouth of Jesus himself. I put the word of Jesus above all other.
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV)
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Peter 3:14-16 (ESV) 14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
The words of Jesus, as recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are just as much scripture as the rest of the Bible. Peter even considered Paul’s writings as scripture. If you are finding a conflict between what Jesus said and what Paul wrote, perhaps you are mistaken in your understanding.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:28 pm to Stitches
quote:Sort of. I'm saying that whatever authority was given to Peter (whether at first as an individual--as Rome argues--or as a representative of the disciples--as Protestants typically argue), that authority was also given to the other disciples/apostles and then passed to the elders/overseers after them and that authority is not unique to Peter.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're agreeing that Peter was given the keys in a unique sense in Matthew 16, but that later in Matthew 18 we see that the "power" associated with the keys is given to all of the Apostles, indicating that they too must have been given the keys. Is that a fair analysis?
Your initial comment seemed to be saying that the keys and the authority to bind/loose were separate and that Peter had the keys while he and the disciples had the authority to bind and loose, but I was attempting to show through the grammar that in both Matthew and in Isaiah, the key(s) and the authority to bind/loose or open/close are connected rather than two different things.
Posted on 12/6/24 at 1:53 pm to FooManChoo
I said you put the writing of Paul above those of the HOLY GOSPELS.
There are only 4 books in the Bible that are consider holy, Matthew, John, Mark, and Luke. These are the written word of Christ.
Espesians is not a gospel,but shouldn't be ignored either.
While not considered a "Gospel" in the strict sense of directly narrating Jesus' life, the book of Ephesians is widely considered to be full of the Gospel message, presenting the core truths of Jesus Christ's saving grace and emphasizing its application to daily life within the Christian community; essentially, it is a rich exposition of the Gospel principles rather than a separate narrative of Jesus' life.
There are only 4 books in the Bible that are consider holy, Matthew, John, Mark, and Luke. These are the written word of Christ.
Espesians is not a gospel,but shouldn't be ignored either.
While not considered a "Gospel" in the strict sense of directly narrating Jesus' life, the book of Ephesians is widely considered to be full of the Gospel message, presenting the core truths of Jesus Christ's saving grace and emphasizing its application to daily life within the Christian community; essentially, it is a rich exposition of the Gospel principles rather than a separate narrative of Jesus' life.
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