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re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God--WSJ--Eric Metaxas
Posted on 1/1/15 at 4:56 pm to asurob1
Posted on 1/1/15 at 4:56 pm to asurob1
quote:
Understand, I admire the faith. To have that kind of faith in the wall of evidence that proves otherwise is powerful. But then again lemmings do march right off that cliff don't they.
I spent most of my life as a Christian, and I can personally attest to the fact that most religious individuals (at least in the western world) have far more insight than many give them credit for. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance among even the most devout of followers often times.
In public among mixed faith company, we would always put up a confident façade. Behind closed doors (bible studies and such) the true depth of doubt and rational questioning can usually be seen on full display. I knew so many believers (both before and after I started drifting away from the faith) who believed in God much the same way a person stranded at sea treads water. There just wasn't any other option in their eyes other than to approach the world as if God existed, yet they were fully aware of the discrepancy between their faith and what they experienced in reality.
Religious people (at least many of them) are not mindless idiots who accept whatever they are told without questioning. It's just that the seed of faith is often planted so deep that it escapes the judgement of rational thought. People are capable of using a different criteria to judge their faith on than they use for everything else in life.
1
Posted on 1/1/15 at 4:56 pm to asurob1
quote:Perhaps you should use smaller words still.
I will use small words for you.
Science doesn't have to prove there isn't a god.
The faithful want us to believe there is.
The burden of proof is on the faithful ;-)
Because you continue to intermingle the terms Faith, proof, belief, and science.
You also confuse your disregard of the Bible with a possibility of God. You consistently allow that disrespect to pollute your arguments. You shouldn't
Posted on 1/1/15 at 4:57 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
Yet here we are, not only existing, but talking about existing. What can account for it? Can every one of those many parameters have been perfect by accident? At what point is it fair to admit that science suggests that we cannot be the result of random forces? Doesn’t assuming that an intelligence created these perfect conditions require far less faith than believing that a life-sustaining Earth just happened to beat the inconceivable odds to come into being?
An entire article that can be summarized by the old, ridiculous "argument" that consists of: since we don't know everything there is to know about the universe and since we are here, we therefore should assume that a deity must exist.
quote:
Multiply that single parameter by all the other necessary conditions, and the odds against the universe existing are so heart-stoppingly astronomical that the notion that it all “just happened” defies common sense. It would be like tossing a coin and having it come up heads 10 quintillion times in a row. Really?
Again, we don't yet know the origins of the universe, therefore God did it. Also, how pathetic it is to appeal to our common sense as if it somehow serves as the basis of an argument. Guess what, our common sense can be, and often is, woefully flawed due to the conditions that shaped our evolution. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the field of quantum mechanics, in which countless discoveries and evidence defy our common sense.
But as for more simple examples, common sense tells us that we shouldn't be able to get sunburned on an overcast day. Heavy objects should fall faster than light objects. Combining colors within the light spectrum gives you white. If we could travel faster than the speed of light it's possible that we would travel backwards in time. Hell, there was a time, and for some people that time has yet to pass, that common sense told us that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolves around the Earth.
Common sense, our regular senses, fail us all the time. That's precisely why we have science.
This is just another example of forming an assumption about reality not due to evidence, but because we have questions that still lack answers. "We don't know, therefore God did it." It's neither evidence nor an argument.
The author of this article is obviously scientifically illiterate. His assertion that assumptions and faith are valid methods of coming to conclusions to questions we have yet to answer, rather than evidence, perfectly illustrates this fact.
This post was edited on 1/1/15 at 4:58 pm
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:01 pm to asurob1
quote:
Each time they come to my door I ask them the same question. You want me to believe...prove to me god exists
The thing is, in order to be a believer, you simply have to open up and allow yourself to believe. There is no and will never be that tangible evidence that you or other nonbelievers look for. Its hard to explain, but the thing is you have to come to accept there is more to life than science. Everything in life can not be explained by earthly standards. To me, it is so clear that he's real because of the relationship I have with him. And its so easy to have a relationship, all you have to do is just open your self up to believe the things that can't be seen
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:12 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
I welcome proof the evolution of a lower genus of organisms into a higher one. Why don't you show us?
talkorigins.org has a list of 1000s of observed speciation events.
and read my sig so you will finally understand theory vs Theory.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:20 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
.g., you said "there's no kingdom out there."
Give the man a seegar...NC; he's kinda right about "out there". The Good Lord affirmed as much..."behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is WITHIN". A broke clock is right twice a day.
Hell, we all gotta cut our debate teeth sometime, somewhere; the Poliboard is a good place to start.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:21 pm to QJenk
quote:
you simply have to open up and allow yourself to believe
One could just as easily say that believers must open themselves up to the possibility that they could be wrong.
quote:
There is no and will never be that tangible evidence that you or other nonbelievers look for.
To which a reasonable person should be willing to ask "why?"
quote:
the thing is you have to come to accept there is more to life than science.
I know of nobody who would disagree with that. Subjective experience is absolutely part of living. The issue comes when our subjective ideas of reality inherently contradict what we know about the physical world around. If you believe that your pet lizard genuinely loves and cares for you, there is no harm in letting you go through life with that belief. If however you believe that you will survive jumping off a building because you can fly that could have serious consequences.
Now obviously that is an extreme example, but one that illustrates how one should be able to rationally defend what they believe to a certain extent on CERTAIN issues. I'm not saying that a flying person will never exist with absolute certainty, but I can claim it so to such a confident extreme that I would require and incredible amount of evidence before I allowed a loved one to try it.
The claims made by organized religions are so extreme, so grand and so all-encompassing that to devote your life to it should require an extreme level of evidence. If God expects us to devote our short number of years here to him, he should in return be expected to provide us with very, very sound evidence. That evidence simply doesn't exist.
quote:
And its so easy to have a relationship, all you have to do is just open your self up to believe the things that can't be seen
The fact that millions have tried this and failed, or once believed but now do not, is proof that it is simply not as "easy" as you claim. There is a flaw in this game plan.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:31 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
In public among mixed faith company, we would always put up a confident façade. Behind closed doors (bible studies and such) the true depth of doubt and rational questioning can usually be seen on full display. I knew so many believers (both before and after I started drifting away from the faith) who believed in God much the same way a person stranded at sea treads water. There just wasn't any other option in their eyes other than to approach the world as if God existed, yet they were fully aware of the discrepancy between their faith and what they experienced in reality.
Roger, you are an idiot.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:33 pm to QJenk
quote:
Everything in life can not be explained by earthly standards. To me, it is so clear that he's real because of the relationship I have with him.
uh what?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:37 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The claims made by organized religions are so extreme, so grand and so all-encompassing that to devote your life to it should require an extreme level of evidence. If God expects us to devote our short number of years here to him, he should in return be expected to provide us with very, very sound evidence. That evidence simply doesn't exist.
Roger, there is a ton of evidence. You are so just so judgmental and closed minded you refuse to see it/accept it. It takes way more faith to be an atheist because they have absouletly zero evidence that God does not exist. It is a blind faith with zero evidence. I just can not do this. Zero evidence ever.
"Man is not as smart as he thinks he is". This verse definitely describes you. You think you are so smart and you have it all figured out. But when your time comes you will be scared shitless. Everything you thought you knew will not help you or excuse you of your ignorance while here.
This post was edited on 1/1/15 at 5:44 pm
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:38 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Roger, you are an idiot.
For questioning my beliefs, and noticing when others question theirs?
You are an odd bird
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:42 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
You are an odd bird
Says the atheist who follows Satan's word.
How ironic.
This post was edited on 5/17/16 at 8:36 am
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:43 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Roger, there is a ton of evidence. You are so just so judgmental and closed minded you refuse to see it/accept it. It takes way more faith to be an atheist because that have absouletly zero evidence that God does not exist. It is a blind faith with zero evidence. I just can not do this. Zero evidence ever.
show me 1 single solitary scrap of evidence that there is a god.
1
I will wait right here.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:43 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Says the gay atheist who follows Satan's word.
How ironic.
Hell, show me one single solitary scrap of evidence that Satan exists.
I will wait right here.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:46 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Well that's a scoch over-broad.
The claims made by organized religions are so extreme, so grand and so all-encompassing that to devote your life to it should require an extreme level of evidence.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:48 pm to asurob1
quote:
show me 1 single solitary scrap of evidence that there is a god. 1 I will wait right here.
I could probay list 1000 pieces of evidence to support God. You would then try your best to say everyone of them is wrong.
I ask an atheist to show me 1 piece of evidence that there is no God. They can't provide anything. All they can do is attack. That is it. Blind faith. No discussion here.
I choose to have faith where there is evidence rather than believe in something with zero evidence like an atheist.
This post was edited on 1/1/15 at 5:50 pm
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:51 pm to I B Freeman
People assume that "life" like us is the only kind of life. How do they know organisms and maybe even complex life hasn't evolved to thrive on a planet like Mercury or "breathe" sulfur or something like that?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:53 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Roger, there is a ton of evidence.
There is plenty of subjective evidence, but little objective evidence of a deity and even less of a specific one.
quote:
You are so just so judgmental and closed minded you refuse to see it/accept it.
Seems like a strange accusation given that I spent most of my life seeing and accepting it. Between the two of us only one has lived and experienced both sides of this debate, and based on your posting history related to the topic at hand I suspect I lived the side you are currently on with a far deeper understanding than you currently do.
quote:
"Man is not as smart as he thinks he is".
I've already stated that this debate has little to do with intelligence, and I certainly don't consider myself smarter than believers as a whole.
quote:
You think you are so smart and you have it all figured out.
Not in the least, I am consistently humbled by the knowledge and experience of others. That's partly why I chose the field of medicine, as inherent to that field is a constant barrage of people smarter and wiser than you to learn from.
quote:
But when your time comes you will be scared shitless.
If I am wrong, I'll certainly have questions. I'll be very interested in hearing the story of whatever deity exists if in fact one does. I would hope that if threatened with Hell from the deity you worship on the day of my death, I'd go off into that realm with the same dignity and self-respect that so many have in the past in the face of tyrants. But you might be right, I may crumble under such a revelation. I have no reason to believe such a scenario will ever take place however.
Luckily for you, if you are wrong you'll never know it. It many ways, given the lack of evidence for it, it is a cowardly belief.
quote:
Everything you thought you knew will not help you or excuse you of your ignorance while here.
A God who relishes praise from the ignorant, both willfully and unintended, would not be one I would choose to worship even if it could be shown he existed.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:55 pm to ctiger69
quote:
Says the gay atheist who follows Satan's word.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 5:59 pm to ctiger69
quote:
I choose to have faith where there is evidence rather than believe in something with zero evidence like an atheist.
so please enthrall the thread with your 'evidence' for God.
simply by definition you just contradicted yourself
faith is belief on bad or zero evidence
science is understanding based on best evidence available
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