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Started By
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re: DLine Shift causing false start is a DLine penalty now
Posted on 7/17/25 at 9:39 am to White Tiger
Posted on 7/17/25 at 9:39 am to White Tiger
quote:Wrong.
This penalty is ripe for massive abuse.
There are three different issues referenced in this thread:
(1) shifting / stemming (legal),
(2) action simulating a snap (false start penalty), and
(3) disconcerting signals / acts (delay of game penalty).
SHIFTING / STEMMING
Shifts are not now, nor have they ever been, a penalty. Not by the offense, and not by the defense. Anyone can shift, offensive or defensive, and players can shift with other players.
ACTION SIMULATING A SNAP
What defensive lineman cannot do, just like offensive lineman cannot do, is engage in action that simulates a snap. Shifting does NOT simulate a snap. A player, a group of players, or even the entire team shifting does NOT simulate a snap. Moving your body or a part of your body in a manner that simulates a snap is a false start.
Let's contrast the first two items. As I stated before, anyone on offense or defense can shift, by themselves or in conjunction with other teammates. That is legal. On the other hand, no one can engage in action that simulates a snap. That is a false start penalty.
There's a discernible difference between shifts and actions that simulate a snap. If defensive linemen shift positions left or right, that is not action that simulates a snap. That is a lateral shift of position. So if an official sees a defensive player or players shift positions laterally, the official will not call a false start penalty.
On the other hand, if a defensive players lunges, flinches, or waves his arm, that can be an actions that simulate a snap. An official can and should call that a false start penalty.
DISCONCERTING SIGNALS / ACTS
Disconcerting signals / acts involve defensive player action that disrupts the offense's cadence / snap count / starting signal. Obviously, a defensive player clapping or yelling a cadence can violate this rule. I watched a video of high school officials discussing a play in which the entire defensive line shifted position by barrel rolling sideways. I believe the left side rolled left, and the right side rolled right. The video discussed whether the movement was legal or whether it was a penalty, and what was the proper call. The majority called it a disconcerting act because it was not just a lateral shift of position; rather, it was clearly intended to disrupt the offense’s starting signal communication.
4
Posted on 7/17/25 at 9:53 am to Salviati
So then, nothing new.
Posted on 7/17/25 at 9:56 am to Reda LSU
Yep, it’s almost finished
Posted on 7/17/25 at 10:10 am to Madking
quote:Don't be ignorant. Educate yourself.
Yep, it’s almost finished
Posted on 7/17/25 at 10:37 am to Alt26
quote:So a strong or weak side gap shift has no value in any defense? WTF are you talking about.
No matter what BS a coach may say, the ONLY reason for that sudden and coordinated shift if to draw a penalty against the OL
quote:The OL knows the snap count dumbass. The defense goes on MOVEMENT. You seem clueless.
The OL gets put in a spot where even the slightest of flinches could be called a penalty
Posted on 7/17/25 at 11:28 am to Reda LSU
Motion of te ,rb should be a penalty as well then right
Posted on 7/17/25 at 11:49 am to lsubuddy
quote:A TE, like any offensive player positioned on the line of scrimmage, cannot go in motion.
Motion of te ,rb should be a penalty as well then right
A RB, like any offensive player lined up off of the line of scrimmage, can go in motion.
Of course, if an offense has two or more players in motion at the same time, all of them must stop and remain stationary for a full second before the snap.
Posted on 7/17/25 at 12:55 pm to Reda LSU
quote:This is ridiculous. So and offense can move laterally, shift formation and knows the snap count....yet a defense cant make a last second gap adjustment to counter. I can see this turning more than one game on its head. Any decent center will know that their offense movement will illicit a shift, then snap the ball at that time.
if the Dline all shifts to the left or right and the Oline moves for what is normally a false start, it is now a defensive penalty.
Posted on 7/17/25 at 1:02 pm to tigerfoot
quote:Wrong.
This is ridiculous. So and offense can move laterally, shift formation and knows the snap count....yet a defense cant make a last second gap adjustment to counter. I can see this turning more than one game on its head. Any decent center will know that their offense movement will illicit a shift, then snap the ball at that time.
The OP is wrong.
Your post is wrong.
They are both based on faulty assumptions and erroneous applications.
Posted on 7/17/25 at 1:28 pm to Salviati
quote:but this rule will be applied erroneously
faulty assumptions and erroneous applications.
That’s the point
Posted on 7/17/25 at 1:32 pm to tigerfoot
quote:Wrong again.
but this rule will be applied erroneously
That’s the point
The OP does not understand the rule or how it is applied.
Do you?
Posted on 7/17/25 at 1:47 pm to Salviati
quote:So, you are defending a rule that when applied could not have 100% agreement. And this was a play that occured, and time provided to think, re watch and discuss.
The majority called it a disconcerting act because it was not just a lateral shift of position; rather, it was clearly intended to disrupt the offense’s starting signal communication.
So, one Saturday you get a crew that thinks this is legal, then the next it is not?
This is a situation that was left up to what the refs 'thought' the defense was trying to do.
Now we also have to decide how much of a flinch is allowed, is it allowed with the lower half, but not the hands? Oh, and is a flinch or shift? What if the LB calls a shift and only one guy moves? Do we get to stop, watch film then discuss...then maybe or maybe not it is a penalty. I guess it is up to what the refs THOUGHT they were doing.
Posted on 7/17/25 at 2:09 pm to tigerfoot
quote:And here I thought I was going to waste my time being a sentry on this hill. Charge up if you think you must, but you are warned, you do so at your own peril.
So, you are defending a rule that when applied could not have 100% agreement. And this was a play that occured, and time provided to think, re watch and discuss.
So, one Saturday you get a crew that thinks this is legal, then the next it is not?
This is a situation that was left up to what the refs 'thought' the defense was trying to do.
Now we also have to decide how much of a flinch is allowed, is it allowed with the lower half, but not the hands? Oh, and is a flinch or shift? What if the LB calls a shift and only one guy moves? Do we get to stop, watch film then discuss...then maybe or maybe not it is a penalty. I guess it is up to what the refs THOUGHT they were doing.
Your post discusses the "disconcerting act" rule. The OP is NOT discussing the "disconcerting act" rule. To the contrary, the OP is discussing the "action that simulates a snap" rule.
THAT is the rule I am saying that the OP got wrong.
And the OP is clearly and unambiguously wrong. Defensive line shifts are not an action that simulates a snap. Officials will not call a false start penalty for any defensive shifts, in whole or in part.
Do you want more?
This post was edited on 7/17/25 at 3:14 pm
Posted on 7/17/25 at 2:17 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Essentially Defensive Line shifts are banned now in the SEC. Smart offensive lines will all move every single time a defense player shifts.
Its crazy
If the offensive line shifts, the defensive line has to be allow to shift too right?
For example if the offensive line lines up with a three tight end set and the DL is set heavy on the side with two tight ends, then one tight end goes in motion the DL has to be allowed to shift without being called for delay of game, right?
Posted on 7/17/25 at 2:33 pm to BabyGumbo
quote:I'll tell you what's crazy. These three things are crazy:
Essentially Defensive Line shifts are banned now in the SEC. Smart offensive lines will all move every single time a defense player shifts.
Its crazy
(1) The original post is crazy in how wrong it is.
(2) The original poster is crazy in how he has not fixed the original post.
(3) The number of people who believe the original post is crazy in how they never examine the original post in depth.
quote:Yes, the defensive line can shift. The OP is just plain wrong.
If the offensive line shifts, the defensive line has to be allow to shift too right?
For example if the offensive line lines up with a three tight end set and the DL is set heavy on the side with two tight ends, then one tight end goes in motion the DL has to be allowed to shift without being called for delay of game, right?
Posted on 7/17/25 at 3:11 pm to Salviati
Ironic
Posted on 7/17/25 at 3:15 pm to Madking
quote:You're more ironic.
Ironic
Shorten it to moronic.
This post was edited on 7/17/25 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 7/17/25 at 3:55 pm to Salviati
Case in point
Posted on 7/17/25 at 4:10 pm to Salviati
quote:
Shifting does NOT simulate a snap.
Actually, it 100% does if the ref decides it does. There absolutely is not any objective measure that the defense or coach can use to shield themselves from a ref deciding that any particular movement they feel like "simulates a snap" and throwing the flag. It doesn't matter if it's a safety walking up to fill a run gap or a CB backpedaling to cushion a receiver before the snap; if the ref decides it "simulates a snap", then they throw the flag and the defense is penalized 5 yards. This rule "change" or "clarification" or whatever they are calling it is simply giving the refs more opportunities to apply their subjective judgment on what "simulates a snap"; which, of course, means it is ripe for abuse by those same refs and the coaches who play on their bullshite subjectivity.
Posted on 7/17/25 at 4:12 pm to Salviati
quote:
So if an official sees a defensive player or players shift positions laterally, the official will not call a false start penalty.
Are you taking bets on whether or not a lateral shift by the DLine is going to result in a penalty (defensive delay of game of course, since the "false start" call is restricted to violations by the offense) at any point in any game this season?
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