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1
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:26 pm to Korin
quote:
MJ went to the Finals 6x and was the mvp in every single of them. Kobe can't say that.
And if he didn't take a break for 2 years, it would be 8 and 8.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:29 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
In the end, Kobe has been a great player, but he's severely overrated by many.
I just think his longevity gets overlooked. We're talking about a guy that will have a 20 year career with most of those years played at an All-NBA level. At the guard position, this is all the more impressive to me.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:32 pm to Gtothemoney
quote:MJ was only gone for a year and a half. MJ was there for the 1995 season and the Bulls went to the playoffs.
And if he didn't take a break for 2 years, it would be 8 and 8.
Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg in the playoffs on 48.4% shooting. A better FG% than he had the last year of his first 3-peat and all three years of his second 3-peat. And a higher ppg than the first two years of the second 3-peat.
People saying the Bulls would have won those two titles between the repeats are regurgitating revisionist history.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:32 pm to htran90
quote:
28.3/5.9/5.3 45.5 fg%
vs
27.9/7.5/7.0 51.1 fg%
vs.
32.3/6.3/5.9 51.6 fg%
If you showed me those stats without putting names in it, I'm picking the 2nd 2 every single time. that's so much more dominant/well-rounded
lol wut
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:33 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
By DESIGN. The Lakers were playing Eastern teams with terrible inside defense that had gotten to those finals by great perimeter play.
That's like saying Tony Parker is better than Tim Duncan because the game plan called for him to exploit the Cavs in the 2007 Finals - cough cough Lebron James.
It was Kobe who carried the Lakers through the true Gauntlet in those years...the Spurs and the Western Conference.
By DESIGN is a 3x Finals mvp?
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:35 pm to Gtothemoney
quote:
And if he didn't take a break for 2 years, i
If my mother had nuts. Speaking of nuts get off MJ's please
He returned & his Bulls were beaten by the Magic(I know he was 'rusty' ) because they had lost there best interior rebounder/presence(Grant).
That team wasn't gonna beat the Magic without Grant(who had teamed up with Shaq)The next season the Bulls replace Grant with a more dominant interior presence( Rodman).
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:38 pm to PhiTiger1764
Its funny that the people that are bashing on Kobe because he won his titles with Shaq..... arent mentioning the fact that LBJ is playing with Wade and Bosh to win his titles. I think that pretty much proves that you cant win a title by yourself and you need players around you. No matter how good you are.
And Kobe was also 21, 22, and 23 years old when they won it with Shaq. A lot of people tend to forget that. At 21 years old, he averaged 23 pts, 6 rebs, and 5 assists. 22 years old he averaged 28pts, 6 rebs, 5 assists. At 23 he was averaging 25pts 6 regs and 6 assts.
When the Lakers won it back to back in the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 years, Kobe averaged 27pts 5 rebs and 5 assts. Pau was their big guy and he averaged 19pts,10 rebs and 18 pts, 11 rebs.
Im not comparing Kobe and Shaq or anything like that. But both guys deserve credit for those titles. Without Kobe, I doubt they win with just Shaq. And without Shaq, I doubt they win with just Kobe.
Both are great players. 2 of the best to ever play the game.
And Kobe was also 21, 22, and 23 years old when they won it with Shaq. A lot of people tend to forget that. At 21 years old, he averaged 23 pts, 6 rebs, and 5 assists. 22 years old he averaged 28pts, 6 rebs, 5 assists. At 23 he was averaging 25pts 6 regs and 6 assts.
When the Lakers won it back to back in the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 years, Kobe averaged 27pts 5 rebs and 5 assts. Pau was their big guy and he averaged 19pts,10 rebs and 18 pts, 11 rebs.
Im not comparing Kobe and Shaq or anything like that. But both guys deserve credit for those titles. Without Kobe, I doubt they win with just Shaq. And without Shaq, I doubt they win with just Kobe.
Both are great players. 2 of the best to ever play the game.
This post was edited on 2/3/14 at 3:41 pm
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:39 pm to Gtothemoney
quote:
And if he didn't take a break for 2 years, it would be 8 and 8.
This idiotic myth rears it's head again...Let's assume Jordan DIDN'T play and LOSE in 1995...which he did.
You talk as if the Bulls had infinite money and contracts didn't exist.
The Bulls were on the verge of breaking up after their first three-peat due to impending contract negotiations etc. The best thing to happen to them was Jordan "retiring".
The Bulls almost won the championship in 1994 with a D-Leaguer taking his place so they'd have won it that year...
But then Horace Grant walked and major contracts would have had to be restructured if Jordan was on the payroll making max money. In reality, the Bulls don't go after Kukoc, because they don't need him, and don't have the money to sign Rodman.
So Jordan wins 4 --- loses in 1995 -- because that actually happened, then the entire second three peat is in jeopardy because their team, overall, isn't as talented.
Let's also factor in the wear and tear on Jordan's knees. We saw how quickly he declined post 1998. That would have just occurred sooner had he had another full year and a half under his belt.
This post was edited on 2/3/14 at 3:43 pm
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:41 pm to theunknownknight
I wonder if a guy with Kobe in his sig has any bias whatsoever. Hmm...
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:41 pm to Korin
quote:
By DESIGN is a 3x Finals mvp?
Did you NOT watch the NBA back then? Obviously you didn't. Greg Oden would have destroyed those interior defenses of the eastern teams in the finals those years. Why NOT feed Shaq?
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:42 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
MJ was only gone for a year and a half. MJ was there for the 1995 season and the Bulls went to the playoffs.
Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg in the playoffs on 48.4% shooting. A better FG% than he had the last year of his first 3-peat and all three years of his second 3-peat. And a higher ppg than the first two years of the second 3-peat.
People saying the Bulls would have won those two titles between the repeats are regurgitating revisionist history.
But, but 'he was rusty'..... Thanks for articulating my point.
The Bulls lost to Orlando because Grant bailed to the Magic in free agency during the off season season & they were lacking interior D/rebounding. They replaced Grant the following season with the greatest rebounder of his era & more dominant than Grant. The rest is history.
Jordan was great ,but the near deification of him is ridiculous.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:43 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
How do you search a time period like that on basketball reference?
Click on each of the years that you want to bookend the time frame you are seeking. The site will then automatically calculate & average it for you
Posted on 2/3/14 at 3:49 pm to theunknownknight
I honestly drop into these types of threads to see how mad theunknownknight gets. Dude loves his Kobe.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 4:02 pm to SPEEDY
quote:Cool, thanks. I've been trying to figure it out for the past 15 minutes lol.
Click on each of the years that you want to bookend the time frame you are seeking. The site will then automatically calculate & average it for you
Posted on 2/3/14 at 4:02 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
The Bulls almost won the championship in 1994 with a D-Leaguer taking his place so they'd have won it that year...
But ,but the Bulls would 'fall apart without MJ'.
He was replaced by Pete 'friggin' Myers & the Bulls barely missed about (a testament to the talent on that team).
1993 with MJ they were 57-25 & 1994 without him they went 55-27 with Pete 'friggin' Myers( FWIW Pippen missed 10 games that season in which they went 3-7).
Perhaps only lost to the Knicks in 7 games because of the awful 'Phantom foul' on Pippen in the pivotal game 5 (Bulls go down 2-3 instead of up 3-2 because one of the worst calls in Pro sports history).
Had the Bulls picked up Derek Harper that season( the Knicks got him mid season for peanuts) instead of staying with Pete Myers they may have beaten the Knicks & gone back to the finals.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 4:05 pm to sugar71
People want to argue that jordan came back mid-season having not played for a year and a half and expect him to be jordan.
Nick Anderson even said "that didn't look like the old Jordan". Jordan was definitely missing his old killer instinct he developed the few years prior.
We can argue all we want regarding rings, 'clutch', and all that jazz, but stats don't lie.
Kobe was a great player in the 2000s, his game grew alongside shaq and when it came down to it, he won 2 without shaq. Shaq was the dominant player on the lakers in the early 2000s and as a result they won 3 rings with him. Kobe became the team's dominant player after Shaq's departure.
'04-'05 34-48 [.415]
'05-'06 45-37 [.549]
'06-'07 42-40 [.512]
'07-'08 57-25 [.695; 22-5 after the trade 35-20 before the trade which was good for .636]
'08-'09 65-17 [.793]
'09-'10 57-25 [.695]
'10-'11 57-25 [.695]
'11-'12 41-25 [.621]
'12-'13 45-37 [.549]
those are the years after Shaq, notice where the discrepancy was? In the years before pau and the last 3 years (including this year) when Pau's game was declining.
Nick Anderson even said "that didn't look like the old Jordan". Jordan was definitely missing his old killer instinct he developed the few years prior.
We can argue all we want regarding rings, 'clutch', and all that jazz, but stats don't lie.
Kobe was a great player in the 2000s, his game grew alongside shaq and when it came down to it, he won 2 without shaq. Shaq was the dominant player on the lakers in the early 2000s and as a result they won 3 rings with him. Kobe became the team's dominant player after Shaq's departure.
'04-'05 34-48 [.415]
'05-'06 45-37 [.549]
'06-'07 42-40 [.512]
'07-'08 57-25 [.695; 22-5 after the trade 35-20 before the trade which was good for .636]
'08-'09 65-17 [.793]
'09-'10 57-25 [.695]
'10-'11 57-25 [.695]
'11-'12 41-25 [.621]
'12-'13 45-37 [.549]
those are the years after Shaq, notice where the discrepancy was? In the years before pau and the last 3 years (including this year) when Pau's game was declining.
This post was edited on 2/3/14 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 2/3/14 at 4:07 pm to htran90
quote:
those are the years after Shaq, notice where the discrepancy was? In the years before pau and the last 3 years (including this year) when Pau's game was declining.
Do the same analysis of Jordan without Pippen now...
Here, I'll help...
Jordan played 5 seasons without Pippen and had a losing season every time.
Lebron played several seasons without 2-3 other HoF'ers on his team and never won a title. See how that works?
This post was edited on 2/3/14 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 2/3/14 at 4:11 pm to PrimeTime Money
Okay, here are some advanced stats for Kobe, LeBron, and Jordan when they were the same age:
Kobe: .559 TS%, 8.4 TRB%, 25.0 ast%, 113 ortg 105 drtg, 24.7 PER
LeBron: .596 TS%, 11.5 TRB%, 35.6 ast%, 119 ortg, 101 drtg, 29.3 PER
Jordan: .589 TS%, 9.5 TRB%, 26.7 ast%, 121 ortg, 103 drtg, 29.8 PER
LeBron and Jordan are close. Kobe is well behind.
I may even give the edge to LeBron since he's so versatile. He can play many positions and can rebound better and distribute better than either Jordan or Kobe.
LeBron and Jordan both play great defense, but because LeBron is so versatile, he can guard a wider-range of players. So I'd give him the nod.
Kobe: .559 TS%, 8.4 TRB%, 25.0 ast%, 113 ortg 105 drtg, 24.7 PER
LeBron: .596 TS%, 11.5 TRB%, 35.6 ast%, 119 ortg, 101 drtg, 29.3 PER
Jordan: .589 TS%, 9.5 TRB%, 26.7 ast%, 121 ortg, 103 drtg, 29.8 PER
LeBron and Jordan are close. Kobe is well behind.
I may even give the edge to LeBron since he's so versatile. He can play many positions and can rebound better and distribute better than either Jordan or Kobe.
LeBron and Jordan both play great defense, but because LeBron is so versatile, he can guard a wider-range of players. So I'd give him the nod.
This post was edited on 2/3/14 at 4:14 pm
Posted on 2/3/14 at 4:12 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
theunknownknight
Sorry dude but Kobe wasn't even close to the player MJ was. Kobe and Lebron would probably quit basketball if they had to play those Piston teams MJ had to play. No way those two softies would have survived.
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