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Message
1
Posted on 7/22/10 at 2:15 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
Ahh, didn't know that.
Look, in general, I totally agree with you. There's no accounting for tastes, people like what they like. But to just blandly assert that KISS has NO MUSICAL TALENT is ridiculous, IMO.
I hate (HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE) Pearl Jam. But I would never argue that they have no musical talent. Ditto Radiohead.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 2:16 pm to dirtbag lsu
quote:
U2....35 years....not even close.
See where they are in 10 years.
let me state that I don't hate Kiss. I actually dig on them for who they are and their music. I still got some trading cards if you want to swap. But U2 has been around since '76 selling out stadiums since '83. But what you're forgetting is that KISS was non-existent from '83 til what 2000? And saying 2000 is being generous. Even in U2's zooropa days, they were selling out stadiums worldwide. So where are they in 10 years? still doing what they've been doing.
This post was edited on 7/22/10 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 7/22/10 at 2:17 pm to Cdawg
quote:
But what you're forgetting is that KISS was non-existent from '83 til what 2000? And saying 2000 is being generous.
I'm not sure that's right. The makeup reunion tour was in 1996.
Still, I don't know why U2 has been brought into this. Seems to me they're clearly the biggest band in the world.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 2:24 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
Any band that has been around 35 years and can still sell out arenas is awesome.
Stones can do that.....hmmm...name another one
U2 was my answer to that question.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 2:59 pm to Cdawg
quote:
U2 was my answer to that question.
I'd say Eagles clearly can as well. Eagles might be able to sellout stadiums.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:03 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
But what you're forgetting is that KISS was non-existent from '83 til what 2000? And saying 2000 is being generous.
I saw Kiss numerous times in that span....still had 10,000 to 20,000 people at their shows. Even in a slower time period for them.
And good one on the Eagles.
So that is KISS, U2 (even though it hasnt been 35 years), Eagles and David Bowie(does he tour?).
Not a bad group! And it isnt many! So my point exactly.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:06 pm to dirtbag lsu
Iron Maiden has been around since probably 1977, and they do worldwide arena tours all the time. I've seen them 3 times just in the last 2 years - never with less than 20K people present. I saw them at Madison Square Garden in 2003, and the promoter had to add a second night because of demand. That's right. 2 soldout nights at the Garden. I would argue that Maiden's record in this regard is even more impressive than the other bands named due to lack of popular media support and lack of chart-topping singles.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:07 pm to Tiger JJ
I agree......Maiden does rule.
Great live band. I saw them in a 2000 seat venue in Dallas a few years back........awesome!
Great live band. I saw them in a 2000 seat venue in Dallas a few years back........awesome!
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:08 pm to dirtbag lsu
The smallest place I ever saw them was the Hammerstein Ballroom in NYC - and they had to play multiple nights there.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:12 pm to Tiger JJ
To repeat, why I hate Kiss:
And I don't think Kiss' hooks are very good. and I LOVE a good hook. In fact, I think guitarists sort of ruin rock n roll by trying to make it too complex sometimes. Just play the friggin riff. AC/DC is the grand champion of just great hooks and awesome riffs. Kiss is a pale imitation.
dude, there are punk bands with more complex melodies than Kiss and they are explictly trying to be simple and stripped down.
Really, Kiss just irritates me like no other band. I honestly don't understand how people like them. Obviously, people do and that's entirely their perogative. I just don't understand how. Their songs really, really suck. And their marketing is cringe inducing its so juvenile. I understand how 12 year olds like Kiss, but that's about it. Then again, I don't know how people could have enjoyed Transformers the movie. And obviously, lots of people do.
quote:
Kiss will still be selling out shows to mullet-headed morons. It is such a cynical band dedicated to nothing more than fleecing its fanbase. Whoever brought up PT Barnum is right. They will do anything for a dollar. I have no problem with artists making money. In fact, I want them to make money. But Kiss is just so crass in their exploitation of the public in order to squeeze one more dollar from them.
quote:I did not. Someone else did. I said "they fricking suck". I also said their talent lay in their marketing acumen. I didn't say they couldn't play a note. I said their music was painfully stupid, and not in a tongue in cheek way.
I think he somewhat explicitly said that they were not talented.
quote:I like melodies. I also, admittedly, like a few atonal bands (not all - I find Sigor Ros to be painful and I never could get into Sonic Youth). We do have a long history of you misrepresenting my opinions and then bringing them up in a later argument, just like you are now. For the record, though, I enjoy our banter. However, I don't enjoy when you act like a martyr.
You're right. I should have said "melodies". And again, this is based on a long history with him.
And I don't think Kiss' hooks are very good. and I LOVE a good hook. In fact, I think guitarists sort of ruin rock n roll by trying to make it too complex sometimes. Just play the friggin riff. AC/DC is the grand champion of just great hooks and awesome riffs. Kiss is a pale imitation.
dude, there are punk bands with more complex melodies than Kiss and they are explictly trying to be simple and stripped down.
Really, Kiss just irritates me like no other band. I honestly don't understand how people like them. Obviously, people do and that's entirely their perogative. I just don't understand how. Their songs really, really suck. And their marketing is cringe inducing its so juvenile. I understand how 12 year olds like Kiss, but that's about it. Then again, I don't know how people could have enjoyed Transformers the movie. And obviously, lots of people do.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:14 pm to dirtbag lsu
quote:I do sign onto this. Maiden does rule. I'm not a big metalhead, but they are great.
I agree......Maiden does rule.
And if we're going on impressive sales, Pavement has sold out Central Park for four nights for their reunion concert without the benefit of any airplay of any of their songs and not being in existence for 10 years. ot to mention a reputation for being a lousy live band.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:23 pm to Baloo
quote:
I did not. Someone else did. I said "they fricking suck". I also said their talent lay in their marketing acumen. I didn't say they couldn't play a note. I said their music was painfully stupid, and not in a tongue in cheek way.
Look, if you are now explicitly saying that they aren't devoid of musical talent, then that's fine, I'll believe you. But come on, this is what you said:
quote:
But Kiss sucks. Yes, I've heard those songs, JT. I don't live under a rock. They suck. They are very talented - very talented marketing men.
That was AFTER I gave you a chance to at least admit that they aren't devoid of musical talent.
And it's about more than just "playing a note". Very clearly, they are at least competent songwriters. I really don't see how you could listen to Hard Luck Woman and not agree with that.
quote:
It is such a cynical band dedicated to nothing more than fleecing its fanbase
I mean, I think that is likely to be true now. But a)who gives a shite. b)how can you listen to Detroit Rock City and conclude that that's all that song was?
quote:
dude, there are punk bands with more complex melodies than Kiss and they are explictly trying to be simple and stripped down.
Whoever said anything about "complex"? See, I think this one statement belies your mentality.
quote:
Really, Kiss just irritates me like no other band. I honestly don't understand how people like them.
People like cool beats and cool melodies along with a cool presentation. It's not rocket science (although as we know, clearly you'd like it to be).
quote:
And their marketing is cringe inducing its so juvenile.
I'm not even aware of what their marketing is. I listen to some of their music. What are you talking about?
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:37 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
I'm not even aware of what their marketing is.
Dumbass makeup that appeals to . . . whoever.
Action figures.
Platform boots.
Saturday morning cartoon at one point.
I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but I'm honestly amazed that people really think those guys are a serious rock n roll band. At least how I use the term. But to each his own, I suppose.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:41 pm to Tiger JJ
kiss rocks
love gun, strutter, hide your heart, shout it out loud, cold gin...u could keep going
i don't care what anyone says, i think all of their shite rocks
love gun, strutter, hide your heart, shout it out loud, cold gin...u could keep going
i don't care what anyone says, i think all of their shite rocks
This post was edited on 7/22/10 at 3:42 pm
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:41 pm to VOR
quote:
Dumbass makeup that appeals to . . . whoever.
Action figures.
Platform boots.
Saturday morning cartoon at one point.
I'm not trying to be an a-hole, but I'm honestly amazed that people really think those guys are a serious rock n roll band. At least how I use the term. But to each his own, I suppose.
All that stuff you listed doesn't have to be a part of it. I can go on Rhapsody right now and listen to every song they ever recorded without having to be exposed to any of that. Seriously, who gives a shite about platform boots? It's a fricking costume. Performance art.
What does that even mean "serious rock n roll band"? You guys' problem is that you insist on appending all sorts of irrelevant nonsense to music. For me, if I like the sound of it coming out of the speaker, then I like it. It doesn't matter what they look like or who their other fans are or if they are "serious" or any of that nonsense.
My one exception is Rage Against the Machine. I won't support literal communists.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:43 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:Wow. Competent songwriters? Look, Creed are "competent songwriters". They also suck. there are quite literally, thousands, maybe millions, of competent songwriters. I don't care. We're not even approaching "good".
And it's about more than just "playing a note". Very clearly, they are at least competent songwriters. I really don't see how you could listen to Hard Luck Woman and not agree with that.
You were talking to someone else about musically talented. (Almost) Everyone in the music business can at least play or sing a note. Obviously there's a core level of musicality that every professional has. You talked about their musical talent, which is nothing special, and I responded that about their marketing talent. You weren't even TALKING to me at the time. But Kiss' continued existence is a testmanet not to their music, but their brand name. so I chose to focus on that, their true talent.
quote:No, it's ALWAYS been true. Hey, I'm willing to let the Stones slide on cashing in late in their careers because, hey, they are the Stones. they can do what they want. But Kiss has always been a marketing gimmick from day one. Obviously, I give a shite. So there's one. To tie it in to the "art" thread, they aren't making music because they have something to say or they think they can make something cool, they are pushing product. It's just so shamelessly cynical.
I mean, I think that is likely to be true now. But a)who gives a shite. b)how can you listen to Detroit Rock City and conclude that that's all that song was?
And Detroit Rock City is a remarkably stupid song.
quote:Considering you keep referencing my history of posting, this shows a stunning lack of knowledge of my musical tastes. I'm an old school punk fan. I love three chords and a cloud of dust. My point is, you were arguing "musical talent", and I aargued Kiss displayed the musical talent of a mediocre punk bands and not having any musical talent is sort of the point in a lot of punk. You can't talk about "musical talent" and then when someone argues the point then call them a snob. YOU BROUGHT IT UP. You're the one who made their musical chops an issue.
Whoever said anything about "complex"? See, I think this one statement belies your mentality.
quote:See, and I think their beats are sloppy and unmemorable, their melodies suck, and their presentation is so laughably stupid that I'm shocked they get away with it. Once again, I bring up AC/DC as the band who you must be thinking of. Who are, you know, good.
People like cool beats and cool melodies along with a cool presentation. It's not rocket science (although as we know, clearly you'd like it to be).
quote:You may not be aware of this, but Kiss performed with makeup on while wearing black leather outfits. they created a complicated backstory and each member is a different character. they even wrote storylines about this into some of their music. Perhaps you've heard of these obscure shows in which they put on makeup and perform circus acts like breathing fire. I know! I had never heard of that either!
I'm not even aware of what their marketing is. I listen to some of their music. What are you talking about?
This is a band whose marketing brand is inescapable, yet you pretend as if you've never heard of it.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:53 pm to Baloo
quote:
See, and I think their beats are sloppy and unmemorable, their melodies suck, and their presentation is so laughably stupid that I'm shocked they get away with it. Once again, I bring up AC/DC as the band who you must be thinking of. Who are, you know, good.
Exactly.
Kiss is very basic and bad.
AC/DC is very basic and good.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:56 pm to Baloo
quote:
Wow. Competent songwriters? Look, Creed are "competent songwriters". They also suck. there are quite literally, thousands, maybe millions, of competent songwriters. I don't care. We're not even approaching "good".
First of all, I like Creed a lot, although I do admit that recently, Stapp has become a parody of himself. Tremonti is a great guitarist and songwriter.
quote:
You were talking to someone else about musically talented. (Almost) Everyone in the music business can at least play or sing a note. Obviously there's a core level of musicality that every professional has. You talked about their musical talent, which is nothing special, and I responded that about their marketing talent. You weren't even TALKING to me at the time. But Kiss' continued existence is a testmanet not to their music, but their brand name. so I chose to focus on that, their true talent.
I think you are really severely undervaluing the quality of songwriting. I'm not talking about playing their instruments here - I'm talking about writing coherent songs. I highly highly doubt that more than, say, 5% of people in the music business could write something as good and accessible as Hard Luck Woman. KISS were great business people - not idiot pushovers who had their accountants steal everything by the time they were 29. That is a VIRTUE.
quote:
But Kiss has always been a marketing gimmick from day one. Obviously, I give a shite. So there's one. To tie it in to the "art" thread, they aren't making music because they have something to say or they think they can make something cool, they are pushing product. It's just so shamelessly cynical.
Again, if you like what comes out of the speakers, then who gives a shite if it is "shamelessly cynical"? I mean, I get the idea that you don't like what's coming out of the speakers, but it shouldn't be BECAUSE of some perceived cynicism on the artists' end.
quote:
And Detroit Rock City is a remarkably stupid song.
That's a remarkably stupid statement.
quote:
My point is, you were arguing "musical talent",
Meaning songwriting ability.
quote:
You're the one who made their musical chops an issue.
Songwriting.
quote:
Once again, I bring up AC/DC as the band who you must be thinking of. Who are, you know, good.
I actually don't really like AC/DC. I think they are extremely over-rated.
quote:
You may not be aware of this, but Kiss performed with makeup on while wearing black leather outfits. they created a complicated backstory and each member is a different character. they even wrote storylines about this into some of their music. Perhaps you've heard of these obscure shows in which they put on makeup and perform circus acts like breathing fire. I know! I had never heard of that either!
This is a band whose marketing brand is inescapable, yet you pretend as if you've never heard of it.
A couple of things:
a)I'm asking how any of that would ever reach you. Just get a disc and spin it. Finito. You hear what's coming out of the speaker. You aren't FORCED to consume the "marketing" aspect.
b)I'm not sure it's fair to say that what goes on on stage is "marketing". I mean, shite, who doesn't go for a cool stage show? If that's the standard, then U2 is pure marketing hype.
Posted on 7/22/10 at 3:57 pm to VOR
quote:
Kiss is very basic and bad.
AC/DC is very basic and good.
I think AC/DC's catalogue is infinitely more laughable than KISS'.
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