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re: Could BI be a franchise player?
Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:07 am to CrystalPreserves
Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:07 am to CrystalPreserves
quote:
He could possibly be made into a superstar franchise player
No. It's not just a talent thing. It's also temperament and charisma. Plus an extraordinary skill. Ingram is a great player that isn't that special at anything. Elite scorer, passable defender (at times).
I believe his role is miscast and the team could be successful (regular playoff team) featuring him. In the vein of a Paul George. He has that level of talent. That is a franchise level player. But not really transcendent talent..
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Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:16 am to CelticDog
BI and a consistently healthy Zion could account for total stats of like 55 pointa, 15 rebounds, 15 assists every night. BI has improved since he’s been here specifically in the pick n roll passing part of his game. Zion obviously can finish pick n rolls, and he can be elite at passing out of the short roll. I don’t think we realize the upside of them together since BI has been more of a creator
Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:25 am to LilWezyAna
It seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Ingrams greatest success has come from operating in a lineup with one big and 3 other perimeter players (basically playing PF). When the Lakers went small and when Zion has been out. I get that he is featured at those times and it makes sense that he would get the most opportunity. But it's like he shrinks playing with Zion, similar to when he played alongside James.
His numbers will go down playing with Zion. It's just a matter of how he adapts. It's not fair with how much time Zion is missing. So it's hard to tell how much of an impact it will be..
His numbers will go down playing with Zion. It's just a matter of how he adapts. It's not fair with how much time Zion is missing. So it's hard to tell how much of an impact it will be..
Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:30 am to brmark70816
You can’t logically compare the numbers with Steven Adams on the court to the possible numbers with a decent stretch center in JV on the court
Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:40 am to LilWezyAna
The problem with BI/Zion is not Zion, it is that we insist on putting a bunch of non-creators and non-shooters around them.
I've said it before but the ideal group around Zion and BI would be a Malcolm Brogdon/Darius Garland type guard that can play on and off ball and create in the half court/PnR.
A 3 and D switchable defender ala Lonzo/Hunter/potentially Herb one day if his shot becomes more reliable, and a stretch 5 that can protect the rim.
Last season we put one shooter, a traditional defensive big, and a Bledsoe. This year we are closer to an ideal if Zion/BI were healthy, but still not there. But I think they would play much more synergistically.
I've said it before but the ideal group around Zion and BI would be a Malcolm Brogdon/Darius Garland type guard that can play on and off ball and create in the half court/PnR.
A 3 and D switchable defender ala Lonzo/Hunter/potentially Herb one day if his shot becomes more reliable, and a stretch 5 that can protect the rim.
Last season we put one shooter, a traditional defensive big, and a Bledsoe. This year we are closer to an ideal if Zion/BI were healthy, but still not there. But I think they would play much more synergistically.
Posted on 12/27/21 at 8:52 am to Bronc
If only we had Desmond Bane instead of Kira. He’s a perfect player for BI/Zion
Posted on 12/27/21 at 9:14 am to NolaTiger52
Could the 6'9" 24 year old all-star be a franchise player? the one who can give any team 25/5/5? Um yes, yes he can
Posted on 12/27/21 at 9:50 am to hassan whiteside
quote:
Could the 6'9" 24 year old all-star be a franchise player? the one who can give any team 25/5/5? Um yes, yes he can
Danny Granger averaged 26/5/3 at 25 years old (40% 3pt).
Pascal Siakham averaged 23/7/4 at 25 years old (36% 3pt).
Paul George averaged 23/7/4 at 25 years old (37% 3pt).
Shawn Marion averaged 21/10/2 at 24 years old (39% 3pt).
Joe Johnson averaged 25/4/4 at 25 years old (38% 3pt).
Vince Carter averaged 28/6/4 at 24 years old (41% 3pt).
Tracy McGrady averaged 32/7/6 at 23 years old (39% 3pt).
How many of these are "Superstar" franchise players? Maybe McGrady and Carter, who both left to becomes secondary players. I can name tons more. Being a star player is easy to see and those guys (James and Leonard) lead their teams to wins.
People put too much stock in numbers. Every team, even bad ones, have guys that are going to score. Look at Jalen Rose. At the age of 30 and a bit of a journeyman, he was with the Bulls. He played all 82 games and out of nowhere put up 22/4/5 on 37% 3pt. That team won 30 games..
Posted on 12/27/21 at 10:02 am to brmark70816
Danny Granger, Paul George, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, and Joe Johnson were all top 15 players at one point.
Not sure what point you are trying to make with that list but it comes off like the opposite of what you wanted?
Most of those players besides Marion were, at one point, the best player on playoff teams and were franchise guys.
Not sure what point you are trying to make with that list but it comes off like the opposite of what you wanted?
Most of those players besides Marion were, at one point, the best player on playoff teams and were franchise guys.
This post was edited on 12/27/21 at 10:03 am
Posted on 12/27/21 at 10:11 am to Bronc
It really just depends on the definition of a franchise player.
If it's your best player on a team that can realistically contend for a title over multiple year, no I don't think that's very much up for debate IMO, BI is not THAT good.
If it's best player on a team that is going to be a decent to good playoff team year in and year out like a DMitch or PG13...maybe? We had excellent health the 1st half of the season and a little into the 2nd half AND a historically good player, and we still weren't any good before the 2nd half injuries got us, so I think the jury is still out in that regard.
Without looking, I'd guess every dude or close to it on that list had played in some pretty big playoff games by year 6 of their careers.
If it's your best player on a team that can realistically contend for a title over multiple year, no I don't think that's very much up for debate IMO, BI is not THAT good.
If it's best player on a team that is going to be a decent to good playoff team year in and year out like a DMitch or PG13...maybe? We had excellent health the 1st half of the season and a little into the 2nd half AND a historically good player, and we still weren't any good before the 2nd half injuries got us, so I think the jury is still out in that regard.
Without looking, I'd guess every dude or close to it on that list had played in some pretty big playoff games by year 6 of their careers.
This post was edited on 12/27/21 at 10:12 am
Posted on 12/27/21 at 10:16 am to brmark70816
quote:
7 Time All-Star Joe Johnson
Fixed it for you.
At any given time, there are maybe 5 NBA players who are "franchise" players. Their presence can lift a team to 50+ wins because they are that good. Getting one of those guys is why tanking exists. Everyone else, even All-NBA level guys, can't do that.
A healthy Zion has the potential to be one of those 5.
Ingram isn't and he likely won't get there. But that doesn't mean he isn't excellent and can't be a centerpiece on a good team. He will just need more help (roster/FO, coach, etc)
Posted on 12/27/21 at 10:31 am to shel311
I think my point is more that a lot of those guys can be deep playoff players and I don't think BI is an exception. At least as he is trending.
I mean put BI in place of Booker on that Suns squad and I think that team would still be a deep playoff/contender team.
I mean put BI in place of Booker on that Suns squad and I think that team would still be a deep playoff/contender team.
Posted on 12/27/21 at 10:47 am to Bronc
quote:True but that's almost a weird kind of exception you don't see that often IMO.
I mean put BI in place of Booker on that Suns squad and I think that team would still be a deep playoff/contender team.
What I mean by that is I'd think by definition a franchise player is going to be your best player. But once the Suns got CP3, Booker immediately becomes their 2nd best/most important player. Paul makes that team go, and he again at least IMO is obviously the most important and best player on that team. So from that regard, it kinda skews Booker's case for franchise player as it doesn't really fit the definition perfectly once CP3 arrives.
This post was edited on 12/27/21 at 10:48 am
Posted on 12/27/21 at 4:40 pm to LilWezyAna
quote:
If only we had Desmond Bane instead of Kira
bane was too old for griffin. and most teams.
its all the vogue now to take teens with genes instead of college grads who are solid.
and banes not a pg - which we all agree is needed.
why not wish for memphis gm?
as i recall he got the bane 30th pick in first round (more money and longer deal than 2nds) off boston for 2 2nds.
hes got a team with depth. i watched a little of Memphis v kings last night.
memphis gave 6 5 f john Konchar his first ever start with brooks out with covid. konchar 15 rebounds 14 points.
4 year starter for the indiana purdue ft wayne campus. 4x first team all conference.
undrafted. been with memphis since he graduated 2019.
i think theres something to be said for poaching a really good gm or talent evaluator.
passing up pick 4 and then taking hayes at all in first round let alone 8 gets griffin canned in my ideal metaverse.
let someone else play gm.
This post was edited on 12/27/21 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 12/30/21 at 9:42 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Danny Granger averaged 26/5/3 at 25 years old (40% 3pt). Pascal Siakham averaged 23/7/4 at 25 years old (36% 3pt). Paul George averaged 23/7/4 at 25 years old (37% 3pt). Shawn Marion averaged 21/10/2 at 24 years old (39% 3pt). Joe Johnson averaged 25/4/4 at 25 years old (38% 3pt). Vince Carter averaged 28/6/4 at 24 years old (41% 3pt). Tracy McGrady averaged 32/7/6 at 23 years old (39% 3pt). How many of these are "Superstar" franchise players?
Lol, wow.
The answer is over half of them. At least when healthy.
What a terrible argument.
Posted on 12/31/21 at 12:39 pm to NolaTiger52
BI is already a franchise player. People don't acknowledge that Durant has never carry a team, every team he has been on had another superstar or two.
OKC had Harden and Westbrook
Warriors had Curry, Green etc.
Nets have Irving and Harden
My point if you put BI with legit superstar or two, you would see a much different player. The guy is trying to carry this team by himself and that is heavy load in todays nba.
OKC had Harden and Westbrook
Warriors had Curry, Green etc.
Nets have Irving and Harden
My point if you put BI with legit superstar or two, you would see a much different player. The guy is trying to carry this team by himself and that is heavy load in todays nba.
Posted on 12/31/21 at 12:51 pm to Earthquake
I'm not the least bit concerned about BI being a franchise player. I do have considerable concern, however, that Zion Williamson will be.
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