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Message
re: A better story about Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Posted on 7/19/14 at 1:59 pm to fr33manator
Posted on 7/19/14 at 1:59 pm to fr33manator
quote:
Retaliation is never truly "justified".
bullshite.
quote:
That's something we tell ourselves at night to help cope with the dead that haunt our dreams.
Utter bullshite.
quote:
There is no just war,
Complete and utter bullshite.
quote:
Old men talk about the war. Young men go and die.
Many of those "old men" served in uniform during WWI - most of them knew exactly what the deal was.
quote:
Those who speak of payback should hope the price of their own ancestor's atrocities is not visited upon them.
We're not talking about some remote, esoteric discussion of who did what to whom, generations ago - we were attacked in late 1941 and we ended the war, quite decisively in August 1945 - not even 4 full years later.
Again - play stupid ask games...
quote:
And I speak not to condemn those in that hell of battle, merely to comment on the state of man as it has ever been...capable of selfless mercy, and unenvied cruelty.
Yeah. We're monsters.
Nagasaki today:
Hiroshima today:
1
Posted on 7/19/14 at 2:04 pm to vuvuzela
Before they dropped the atomic bombs they were killing 20 - 30 K people a night in fire bombings. Pilots were physically ill flying back over the bombed area by the smell of human flesh being burned.
Google hardcore history logical insanity the blitz.
Google hardcore history logical insanity the blitz.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 2:10 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Yeah. We're monsters.
We are.
So is everyone else though.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 2:19 pm to fr33manator
Freeminator sounds like a joy to live with.
The "Americans aren't really exceptional" meme is alive and well I see this Saturday.
Ugh.
The "Americans aren't really exceptional" meme is alive and well I see this Saturday.
Ugh.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 2:38 pm to vuvuzela
quote:
The Japanese were ready to surrender, conditionally, before the bombs were ever dropped.
You clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about. If you had done any amount of reading on the war you would never make such an unsupported, foolish statement. Ask the Marines how many Japanese soldiers were ever willing to surrender knowing already that their particular battle was already lost.
Magnify that fanaticism by millions when you are talking about an invasion of the home islands.
Would you have been happier with the hundreds of thousands or more civilians dying and utter destruction of Japan that would have occurred if we had to root them out mile by mile?
They were preparing their populace to participate fully in the fighting.
You certainly don't have to take glee in the effects of the bombings on those who were there, but don't be naive about the alternatives either. You would have just agreed to leave those militaristic, murderous bastards in power?
Posted on 7/19/14 at 3:00 pm to extremetigerfanatic
Because I realize that the whole "good guys versus bad guys" black/white dynamic is flawed?
Look at history. No one has clean hands. There are no virtuous and valiant knights without a horror or twelve behind the mask.
That's not to say that I don't agree tactically with some military decisions. Dropping the bombs was the choice for the time.
But don't delude yourself that the act wasn't an atrocity.
So was firebombing Tokyo though.
Look at history. No one has clean hands. There are no virtuous and valiant knights without a horror or twelve behind the mask.
That's not to say that I don't agree tactically with some military decisions. Dropping the bombs was the choice for the time.
But don't delude yourself that the act wasn't an atrocity.
So was firebombing Tokyo though.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 3:04 pm to fr33manator
quote:
But don't delude yourself that the act wasn't an atrocity.
of course it was.
but it potentially saved an invasion. coupled with politics, it was the right choice. many forget the public was tired of war, and with hitler gone it was hard to keep publc support for the pacific theater. america wanted it to end. the quickest way that preserved american life was the bomb
Posted on 7/19/14 at 3:36 pm to ksayetiger
Like I said, tactically it was the correct choice. But comparing it to Pearl Harbor is laughable. Other than being a "sneak attack" (which is really a rather good strategy in war) it was primarily against military targets.
Bombing a civilian city is another thing altogether.
Bombing a civilian city is another thing altogether.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 3:44 pm to fr33manator
Hiroshima and Nagasaki where industrial cities and that makes them military targets in the strategic sense. Maybe if you had half a clue on this topic you'd have known that already... 
Posted on 7/19/14 at 3:52 pm to Clames
Being an industrial city doesn't make it not full of civilians.
I've got a full 3/5 of a clue on this topic thank you very much.
I've got a full 3/5 of a clue on this topic thank you very much.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 3:57 pm to vuvuzela
Dropping the bombs may not have been necessary to force Japan's surrender, but it was necessary to instill fear in the world.
WW2 was horrible. I think it had reached a point where Truman, and many others, decided a statement needed to be made. The power of the A bomb needed to be seen, not just talked about. The knowledge and understanding of using such weapons and the mass amounts of destruction they cause have played a large part in keeping the superpowers from going to war with each other ever since.
The decision to drop the bombs single handedly propelled America to the top militarily and ever since we have been the moderators in damn near every major international affair.
Basically, we pulled our big dick out and layed it on the table and made everyone suck it
WW2 was horrible. I think it had reached a point where Truman, and many others, decided a statement needed to be made. The power of the A bomb needed to be seen, not just talked about. The knowledge and understanding of using such weapons and the mass amounts of destruction they cause have played a large part in keeping the superpowers from going to war with each other ever since.
The decision to drop the bombs single handedly propelled America to the top militarily and ever since we have been the moderators in damn near every major international affair.
Basically, we pulled our big dick out and layed it on the table and made everyone suck it
Posted on 7/19/14 at 6:38 pm to fr33manator
quote:
fr33manator
You sound like you quoted that from some community college history professor
Posted on 7/19/14 at 7:51 pm to tiger1014
quote:
You sound like you quoted that from some community college history professor
You're saying I should be a community college history professor?
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:19 pm to fr33manator
All I know is that my uncle and Godfather was with the Seventh Division on Okinawa at that time
and was to be in the first wave of the invasion of Japan. He probably would not have survived. To those who say dropping the Bomb was not necessary, I say that you need to STFU as you really don't know what you are talking about.
and was to be in the first wave of the invasion of Japan. He probably would not have survived. To those who say dropping the Bomb was not necessary, I say that you need to STFU as you really don't know what you are talking about.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:20 pm to fr33manator
Without the bomb here, we would've had to invade Japan. It is estimated that it would cost us 250,000 lives to successfully force their surrender. The bombs saved American lives.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:26 pm to byutgr
I never said America shouldn't have dropped the bomb. I've never said that. I don't know where y'all are getting that.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:30 pm to fr33manator
quote:
I never said America shouldn't have dropped the bomb.
What did you mean, then, when you said we weren't justified?
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:40 pm to Festus
quote:
What did you mean, then, when you said we weren't justified?
I mean that "justified" is merely a word. It is the shield people hide behind to excuse horrible actions. It doesn't make them any better.
It's a bunk concept. Actions are taken and the toll is paid in blood. There is no pretty ribbon to dress it up in. When a screaming mother kneels holding the charred flesh of the child she bore..."it was justified" is hardly fitting.
War is a hellish thing and every decision is measured in the cost of grieving widows and sullen-eyed orphans.
But it has always been so, and will always be so. Choices are made and a horrid price is paid to no certain outcome. But to act as if any slaughter is "good"...it's macabre.
The best bad decision is still a bad decision.
This post was edited on 7/19/14 at 8:41 pm
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:46 pm to fr33manator
quote:
I mean that "justified" is merely a word. It is the shield people hide behind to excuse horrible actions. It doesn't make them any better.
It's a bunk concept. Actions are taken and the toll is paid in blood. There is no pretty ribbon to dress it up in. When a screaming mother kneels holding the charred flesh of the child she bore..."it was justified" is hardly fitting.
War is a hellish thing and every decision is measured in the cost of grieving widows and sullen-eyed orphans.
But it has always been so, and will always be so. Choices are made and a horrid price is paid to no certain outcome. But to act as if any slaughter is "good"...it's macabre.
The best bad decision is still a bad decision.
With all due respect, you're avoiding my question. You said it wasn't justified. Then, you said you didn't say it wasn't the right thing to do.
Seems like you're hedging.
Anyway, I think saying that retaliation is never truly justified is downright bunk. Just like if someone was attacking one of your family members, your retaliation would be justified. And a justified act of retaliation damn well makes a horrible action better than when not justified.
Posted on 7/19/14 at 8:49 pm to Festus
I'm talking more in the sense of war. With mass bombings of targets known to have many civilian casualties. It's simply a reality of war, not something to be proud of.
Defending your family from an attack is one thing.
But what if I went to the house of the family of my attacker and burned his parents, wife and children alive? Was I justified?
Defending your family from an attack is one thing.
But what if I went to the house of the family of my attacker and burned his parents, wife and children alive? Was I justified?
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