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Message
re: Best Gun for Personal Protection
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:30 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:30 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
You'll be hard pressed to find anyone with combat experience who feels a shotgun is a better home defense choice than an AR.
Funny you say that.
When I was going through the Home Defense mental calculus a few years ago I reached out to one of my very well trusted Army buddies that was a ranger qualified 11A that had served in the Korea, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Gulf War 1 and 2 and various other "peace keeping" missions all over the world. He had multiple stints in a variety of Airborne (82nd and 173rd) an infantry units. The last time I talked to him, he was a 20+ year O-4 waiting to get his O-5.
His advice was get a home defense shotgun. He said this because of a couple of factors. 1) over penetration of the 5.56/.223 round in typical home construction. 2). You have to train significantly with your weapon and maintain a level of proficiency to use it properly in a stressful situation. In short, your accuracy and proficiency with any weapon decreases exactly at the time we need it to be the highest. 3). The devastating effect of being hit with a typical shotgun load vs a 5.56/.223 round. The typical shotgun load has 8-9 times the mass of projectiles than a 55 grain load from a AR. Sure the velocity of the AR round is higher, but that higher velocity also leads to through and through injuries when compared to a shotgun blast.
Length wise, a typical home defense shotgun is on on par with a a typical 16" barrel AR. The Remmington 870 Express Tactical is 38" long. Most 16" barrel AR are 34-37" (depending on where you have your stock). Not a significant difference.
His feelings were that the average joe is less likely to suffer those proficiency and accuracy errors with a simple pump action shotgun. Additionally, the nature of the weapon makes up for any "gitters" that one might get when it's time to send lead down range.
Another fact is that according to the FBI, most defensive gunfights take place at 3 to 7 meters (10-20 feet). The range of you AR is immaterial in those cases.
But buy what you want and use what you want. But there was a lot of "not true" in your statement.
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 1:33 pm
3
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:47 pm to lshuge
Hammerless .38 if you are concerned you might be surprised or pulled from your car. Point and pull the trigger. No need to get fancy. If you are posting up at the homestead, I would look to go 12ga with a short barrel.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:47 pm to The Sea Otter
quote:
quote:
12ga
This with 00 buckshot
Actually #4 buckshot from a 20 inch barrel is more effective.... just sayn
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:47 pm to Lonnie Utah
Well those are all good points, and some of the reasons I prefer a shotgun to an AR. Most of the people I've talked to prefer a carbine. Shotguns are the old school choice.
I disagree with him on a few things. At 20 feet, a shotgun with any load is going to a negligible spread and significantly more recoil than an AR, and a pump requires manual operation. Id argue that the typical person is significantly more likely to screw up with a pump shotgun than with a good AR. Your friend also likely shot everybody hes ever shot with FMJ ammo, where a good hollow point is an option for a civilian and is going to be significantly more effective. Sure, a full load of 00 buck at 1300fps is bringing significantly more arse with it than any .223 load, but the .223 with quality self defense bullets is still unquestionably effective, and you have 30 of them. I've seen many people short shuck an 870 in a duck blind and ducks dont shoot back
Theres good arguments for both sides. The prevailing opinion in 2020 from credible sources is that an AR15 is the most effective home defense weapon though, and for most people I agree.
I disagree with him on a few things. At 20 feet, a shotgun with any load is going to a negligible spread and significantly more recoil than an AR, and a pump requires manual operation. Id argue that the typical person is significantly more likely to screw up with a pump shotgun than with a good AR. Your friend also likely shot everybody hes ever shot with FMJ ammo, where a good hollow point is an option for a civilian and is going to be significantly more effective. Sure, a full load of 00 buck at 1300fps is bringing significantly more arse with it than any .223 load, but the .223 with quality self defense bullets is still unquestionably effective, and you have 30 of them. I've seen many people short shuck an 870 in a duck blind and ducks dont shoot back
Theres good arguments for both sides. The prevailing opinion in 2020 from credible sources is that an AR15 is the most effective home defense weapon though, and for most people I agree.
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 1:49 pm
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:48 pm to lshuge
quote:
What's the best gun for personal [protection against rioters and looters?
What fricked up inner-city neighborhood are you living in that you fear looting?
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 1:49 pm
Posted on 6/2/20 at 1:55 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Theres good arguments for both sides. The prevailing opinion in 2020 from credible sources is that an AR15 is the most effective home defense weapon though, and for most people I agree.
Here's the real deal with the sources.
It's all about money. The "sources" are all industry insiders that want you to spend money upgrading and tricking out our AR. That makes them money.
Just my opinion man.
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 1:55 pm
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:02 pm to Dominate308
You can at least remove the plug from your shotgun for additional capacity. It's not like you're dodging the game warden.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:08 pm to Lonnie Utah
Yea theres probably a bunch of that going on, I wont argue it. It's all opinions. Mine is that, under pressure somebody who didnt grow up with a pump shotgun in their hand is likely to screw up. I take for granted that working an 870 is totally subconscious for me because I've shot many thousands of shells out of one.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:13 pm to lshuge
The tool for fending off looters was introduced to the world in a movie back in 1987, and here she is:
The M134 Minigun is an American-made six-barrel rotary machine gun chambered for the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge. It features a Gatling-style rotating barrel assembly with an external power source, normally an electric motor, that allows for an incredibly high rate of fire (2,000 to 6,000 rounds per minute).
The M134 Minigun is an American-made six-barrel rotary machine gun chambered for the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge. It features a Gatling-style rotating barrel assembly with an external power source, normally an electric motor, that allows for an incredibly high rate of fire (2,000 to 6,000 rounds per minute).
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:17 pm to lshuge
Here's my strategy, in order of deployment, when it comes to home defense -
12 gauge pump (no plug), loaded with buckshot. Big bowl of extra shells in my nightstand.
Walther PPQ in 9mm home defense rounds, multiple mags.
Ruger GP100 in 357, home defense rounds, several speed loaders.
CZ 512 in 22 LR. Extended mag.
Followed by mace, baseball bats and blades.
Then the dogs get a shot.
Finally, my wife. God bless them at that point.
12 gauge pump (no plug), loaded with buckshot. Big bowl of extra shells in my nightstand.
Walther PPQ in 9mm home defense rounds, multiple mags.
Ruger GP100 in 357, home defense rounds, several speed loaders.
CZ 512 in 22 LR. Extended mag.
Followed by mace, baseball bats and blades.
Then the dogs get a shot.
Finally, my wife. God bless them at that point.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:22 pm to Lonnie Utah
Spot on.
Also why deal with troubleshooting clearing a misfire when you just woke up, 3am, in the dark, nerves off the charts, etc.
With a shotgun: rack the slide.
With a revolver: pull the trigger.
If the situation is home defense, we are all slobbering idiots when suddenly woken from fully asleep in the middle of the night. So go for the idiot-proof options.
12 gauge with buckshot (I like 00 or #4 buck, last 2 rounds are slug). Birdshot is for birds, not men.
.357 magnum, load with jacketed hollowpoints- either .38 special, .38 + p, or .357 mag. Any of the above will put a man down with the quickness.
Also why deal with troubleshooting clearing a misfire when you just woke up, 3am, in the dark, nerves off the charts, etc.
With a shotgun: rack the slide.
With a revolver: pull the trigger.
If the situation is home defense, we are all slobbering idiots when suddenly woken from fully asleep in the middle of the night. So go for the idiot-proof options.
12 gauge with buckshot (I like 00 or #4 buck, last 2 rounds are slug). Birdshot is for birds, not men.
.357 magnum, load with jacketed hollowpoints- either .38 special, .38 + p, or .357 mag. Any of the above will put a man down with the quickness.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:22 pm to ourkansastigah
quote:
Glock 10mm
Someone asking advice for a personal protection weapon is most likely not ready to handle a 10mm.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:27 pm to Apollyon
quote:
With a shotgun: rack the slide.
I've seen lots of people botch this up and I've done it myself many times, Almost always when trying to shoot fast.
Modern semi auto shotguns are reliable and have less recoil than a pump. If you want a shotgun and havent shot a pump a whole lot, you should get a good semi auto. FN SLP, beretta 1301, benelli M4, mossberg 930 are all good choices.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:29 pm to lshuge
M&P Shield .40 S&W
870 Express
AR
Bonus - reloading equipment
870 Express
AR
Bonus - reloading equipment
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:32 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
I will agree with you on short-throwing it. It does happen sometimes.
But if familiar with the gun, this is a pretty null issue, even when in a 3am daze.
The revolver, on the other hand, is 100% idiot proof. Especially when operating in double action. No fire? Pull trigger again, cylinder rotates, boomstick goes boom.
Easy peasy.
But if familiar with the gun, this is a pretty null issue, even when in a 3am daze.
The revolver, on the other hand, is 100% idiot proof. Especially when operating in double action. No fire? Pull trigger again, cylinder rotates, boomstick goes boom.
Easy peasy.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:35 pm to TexasTiger90
12 gauge w/ buckshot if you’re at home.
Out and about, either something concealable like my P365 or Glock 17 if you want plenty of bullets.
Out and about, either something concealable like my P365 or Glock 17 if you want plenty of bullets.
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:37 pm to Apollyon
quote:
even when in a 3am daze.
The 3 AM haze is why everyone also needs a good dog.
Of course, most mornings I'm up by 3am anyway....
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:38 pm to Dominate308
quote:
When the shotgun has to reload and two or three people have Glocks or whatever, the shotgun will lose.
Anyone who's reasonably proficient with a pump-action shotgun can get follow-up shots on target just as quickly as someone with a semi-auto. Obviously you have to take recoil into account, but you're delivering much more payload downrange with a shotgun than with anything else.
This post was edited on 6/2/20 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:38 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
I take for granted that working an 870 is totally subconscious for me because I've shot many thousands of shells out of one.
Ditto. The muscle memory is solid on that one.
Posted on 6/2/20 at 2:44 pm to Dominate308
quote:
When the shotgun has to reload and two or three people have Glocks or whatever, the shotgun will lose.
I don't really get this line of thinking though. Most home invasions are not full on firefights vs 3 or more well-armed intruders. The issue will be settled in quick and lethal fashion. It won't involve multiple reloads.
And if the bad guys are still coming after trading volleys-- then they weren't there to rob you in the first place, that's a cartel hit squad, bro.
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