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re: Civil War time travel question/debate
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:25 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:25 pm to Darth_Vader
They don't want to listen but you are absolutely correct. Watching a TV show or reenactment doesn't accurately depict the number of soldiers involved in the large set piece Civil War battles.
100 soldiers (regardless of who they are or what they have) just aren't going to be enough numerically to change things.
Now put a half dozen modern tanks on the battlefield and we have an interesting situation.
100 soldiers (regardless of who they are or what they have) just aren't going to be enough numerically to change things.
Now put a half dozen modern tanks on the battlefield and we have an interesting situation.
This post was edited on 3/31/14 at 2:27 pm
1
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:28 pm to jbgleason
quote:
Now put a half dozen modern tanks on the battlefield and we have an interesting situation.
Give me a platoon of M1A1 Abrams tanks (that's 4) with enough ammo and fuel, and I'd win the Civil War for the Confederacy in less than 48 hours.
(but I'd not be able to invade the north)
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:30 pm to Darth_Vader
So would cutting off supply lines and communications be just as effective, if not more effective than actively engaging enemy forces?
Pull them further away from their main supply lines then cut them off and essentially "isolate" them?
Pull them further away from their main supply lines then cut them off and essentially "isolate" them?
This post was edited on 3/31/14 at 2:32 pm
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:32 pm to upgrayedd
not eating would demoralize troops
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:32 pm to Darth_Vader
I am curious if the armor on the M1A would take a direct hit from a civil war era field piece?
I am talking about the later rifled explosive projectiles utilized by the Union and not the early dumb ball stuff.
I am talking about the later rifled explosive projectiles utilized by the Union and not the early dumb ball stuff.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:33 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Give me a platoon of M1A1 Abrams tanks (that's 4) with enough ammo and fuel, and I'd win the Civil War for the Confederacy in less than 48 hours. (but I'd not be able to invade the north)
Just the sheer "oh shite! Look Jupel! What in tarnation is that magical dragon beast!" Would send them running. You wouldn't even have to fire a shot
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:34 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
So would cutting off supply lines and communications be just as effective, if not more effective than actively engaging enemy forces?
No way that only 100 men (even SEALS) could cut off the supplies of either the Army of the Potomac or Army of Northern Virginia.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:35 pm to jbgleason
quote:
I am curious if the armor on the M1A would take a direct hit from a civil war era field piece? I am talking about the later rifled explosive projectiles utilized by the Union and not the early dumb ball stuff.
Blow off antennas or optics. A lucky shot to a the drive sprocket or idler MAYBE. Mobility kill but now you have an armored bunker still belching immediate death.
I've seen what 152mm Russian Stuff can do to a tank and that was a direct hit in front of the driver's hatch. M1 was done for. But that was with the Abrams dug in hull defilade, against a Soviet Battalion (similuated by US stuff) firing gobs and gobs and gobs of HE at it.
This post was edited on 3/31/14 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:35 pm to Darth_Vader
What if they were given a limited supply of C4?
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:37 pm to NWarty
Good point on it being a lucky shot. The tanks would be scooting across the terrain much faster than that artillery could be aimed.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:38 pm to jbgleason
quote:
I am curious if the armor on the M1A would take a direct hit from a civil war era field piece?
I am talking about the later rifled explosive projectiles utilized by the Union and not the early dumb ball stuff.
Not even most modern main battle tanks can penetrate the armor of an Abrams. The muzzle velocity and hardness of a Civil War era cannon would not even dent an Abrams. That's why I said I could win the war with a platoon of them. If you put 4 Abrams on a field with either (or even both) the Army of the Potomac and the Army of Northern Virginia, those 4 tanks would slaughter everything they see with complete and total impunity. The men of the Civil War era forces would be faced with three options... (1) surrender, (2) scatter, or (3) die. And even with option 2 most would still die since the Abrams can outrun anything they'd have at their disposal to try and get away.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:44 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Not even most modern main battle tanks can penetrate the armor of an Abrams. The muzzle velocity and hardness of a Civil War era cannon would not even dent an Abrams.
Would agree other than the one in a million shot by a parrot rifle, point blank and blowing off a track.
The one M1A1 I saw knocked out in Soviet Artillery doctrine testing was hit by a US 155mm HE round fired "High Angle", i.e. round shot straight up to an apex of roughly 30K feet and then back down. It was hit in the upper deck of the front hull, not the front glacis plate.
ETA: But there was this one time my old BTRY CDR told me about one of his Troop's tanks hauling arse across the desert with a Soviet sabot dart sticking out of its front glacis plate
This post was edited on 3/31/14 at 2:52 pm
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:49 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
There was about a 10 - 15 minute window where literally the independence was there for the taking. All Lee had to do was send something, hell anything through that gap before the Union could seal it off. Had the approaching Union regiments moving to fill that gap seen regiment after regiment of Confederate Calvary pouring through their lines at full gallop, the Army of the Potomac would have melted like butter on a hot stove. Philadelphia would be open to sacking and Washington itself would be vulnerable (although it still had pretty substantial defenses in the area around it). Bottom line would be the South dictating terms to the North to end the war in favor of a free and independent Confederacy.
solid post...
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:51 pm to NWarty
quote:
Would agree other than the one in a million shot by a parrot rifle, point blank and blowing off a track.
Mobility kill that would leave a still deadly fortress the civil war troops could not hope to harm.
quote:
The one M1A1 I saw knocked out in Soviet Artillery doctrine testing was hit by a 152mm HE round fired "High Angle", i.e. round shot straight up to an apex of roughly 30K feet and then back down. It was hit in the upper deck, not the front glacis plate.
I saw you post on this. Hit the driver's hatch right? That's a one in a million shot there form a battlefield perspective. For those not familiar, here's the driver's hatch on a M1A1...
This picture is a good one in that you can get a good idea of the thickness of the armor right there... it's not a lot. The reason for this is that are is not usually going to be hit at an angle (it's virtually flat to "flat trajectory projectiles).
Now further down the front of the hull, you come to solid armor. Look at this illustration...
See the two headlights and loading hooks on the front of the hull? If you look behind (about halfway to the cutout view) them you'll see a faint line. Everything in front of that line is armor. Yes, that's over 2' thick and angled virtually flat.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:55 pm to Jobu93
quote:
Jobu93
this guy knows whats up!!
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:55 pm to Darth_Vader
Vader,
The round hit offset and to the front of the hatch and penetrated the deck armor. Saw the pictures with my own eyes.
I might have a photo of it somewhere from my BN S2 days so let me do some digging.
I was an Armor and Mech IN Fire Support Officer with 2ID and have spent much time around Brads and M1's.
The round hit offset and to the front of the hatch and penetrated the deck armor. Saw the pictures with my own eyes.
I might have a photo of it somewhere from my BN S2 days so let me do some digging.
I was an Armor and Mech IN Fire Support Officer with 2ID and have spent much time around Brads and M1's.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 2:59 pm to NWarty
quote:
The round hit offset and to the front of the hatch and penetrated the deck armor. Saw the pictures with my own eyes.
There's fuel tanks on both sides of the diver's compartment there. Did it hit one of those? Like I said and and you can see in that picture, the armor at that point is really not thick at all. See that lip where the driver's hatch seals? The thickness you see there is what you get up to the point you get to the armored nose of the tank.
I'd love to see the pictures and hear more details of this test. I was a tanker from the late 80's through the late 90's.
This post was edited on 3/31/14 at 3:00 pm
Posted on 3/31/14 at 3:00 pm to Darth_Vader
Give me One A10 Warthog and ammo and fuel and its over in a day.
Posted on 3/31/14 at 3:04 pm to LSU Rules07
quote:
Give me One A10 Warthog and ammo and fuel and its over in a day.
Where you going to take off or land from?
Posted on 3/31/14 at 3:07 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Darth_Vader
I have enjoyed this today, thank you.
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