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Started By
Message
re: Oklahoma lawmakers OK bill criminalizing performing abortion
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:18 pm to Barf
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:18 pm to Barf
quote:
so why would you care?
I don't care, but hopefully one day these said people eventually make better choices in life. It would be interesting to see the statistics related to abortions. Was any birth control used? And if yes, what form?
0
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:19 pm to Darth_Vader
Darth, let's take something in there one step further.
Hey Barf, define the bold text for me:
If that Creator is God, the rights are endowed most assuredly at conception.
If that Creator is viewed as the mother, guess what? She still created that embryo when? At the moment of conception!
Hey Barf, define the bold text for me:
quote:
all people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
If that Creator is God, the rights are endowed most assuredly at conception.
If that Creator is viewed as the mother, guess what? She still created that embryo when? At the moment of conception!
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:20 pm to Barf
quote:
It's ok for you to believe this, it's well within your rights. However, your specific moral code is not the basis of law, not should it be.
If murder is wrong, why should it be the basis of law?
quote:
Sure. I'm not pro abortion by any stretch of the imagination. I think it's gross but at the same time it does not involve me so what makes me qualified to decided what someone can and cannot do when it doesn't involve me?
So, if a guy walks into a store and blows the back of the clerk's head out while robbing the place, would you have no problem with that since it does not involve you?
quote:
This is irrelevant.
How can it be irrelevant? We're talking taking about the most basic fundamental right a human can have, namely their life. How can you just dismiss that?
quote:
Well, there is the whole unborn thing but that's not really the point.
Again, on what legal basis should an unborn human be denied the same rights as any other human?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:21 pm to JamalSanders
You perform surgery? You are correct. It's called an abortion.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:21 pm to Darth_Vader
I think the reasoning is, not all "life" is equal. A cluster of cells is not a baby. Hell, an unborn 8month fetus is not considered a person under any law I know of. Feticide is not homicide in Louisiana.
I personally think there's a difference in a third trimester fetus and a week old cluster of unrecognized able cells. And you do too. Otherwise, we'd have obituaries and funerals for every miscarriage. My wife has had two early miscarriages and we didn't have a funeral for either.
There's also the practical wisdom that abortion prevents women from having dangerous back alley coat hanger procedures like they used to. And that would happen.
I personally think there's a difference in a third trimester fetus and a week old cluster of unrecognized able cells. And you do too. Otherwise, we'd have obituaries and funerals for every miscarriage. My wife has had two early miscarriages and we didn't have a funeral for either.
There's also the practical wisdom that abortion prevents women from having dangerous back alley coat hanger procedures like they used to. And that would happen.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:23 pm to Barf
quote:
I'm not pro abortion by any stretch of the imagination. I think it's gross but at the same time it does not involve me so what makes me qualified to decided what someone can and cannot do when it doesn't involve me?
Surely you understand that this is a dangerous stance to take. We, as a society, dictate morals to everyone in our society every day, and in turn, the government does the same thing. We've decided, as a group, that murder is wrong and is against the law, and no one has an issue with that law.
The only difference between traditional murder and an abortion is the amount of weeks gestation. The morality of the situation aside, my issue with the prochoice side is that most tend to be against late-term abortions, and I simply cannot reconcile their logic. If it is ok to terminate the pregnancy at 18 weeks, and it is ok to terminate at 23 weeks, why is it a problem to do it at 28 weeks? Clearly you're drawing the line at some point where it is no longer about a mother's body and her choice, right?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:25 pm to TigernMS12
quote:
Who gives a shite? It a women wants to have an abortion then she should be able too. Life is not nearly as precious as most people make it out to be.
Yeah, I don't get why the arguments. If someone wants to abort rather than some unwanted bastard kid being born, I see that as a win.
I do think the time line should be limited to the first few months, but otherwise, I don't see why Christians get their panties in such a bunch.
This post was edited on 5/19/16 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:25 pm to biglego
quote:
There's also the practical wisdom that abortion prevents women from having dangerous back alley coat hanger procedures like they used to. And that would happen.
If you want to end your child's life so desperately that you're willing to put a coat hanger up your uterus, you deserve whatever complications that entails.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:26 pm to Darth_Vader
Enemy soldiers are not innocent civilians. You know as well as I do that we have a shite ton of collateral damage in the Middle East and in places like Vietnam. Really everywhere. I'm not blaming the soldiers or the military bc it's just the price of doing business, but it could be avoided by not trying to be world police when we don't have to.
And no I'm not anti death penalty, I really don't give a shite. But again let's not pretend we haven't killed plenty of innocent people, especially before the advent of DNA testing.
Way to completely miss not only my overall point, but also the specific supporting arguments. Not sure if you're stupid or just stubborn. Point is you're fine with countless things we do/allow as a society that result in death bc you think they're necessary. So do I for the most part. But then there's this one issue where you act like life is the most sacred thing above all else. Well obviously not.
And no I'm not anti death penalty, I really don't give a shite. But again let's not pretend we haven't killed plenty of innocent people, especially before the advent of DNA testing.
Way to completely miss not only my overall point, but also the specific supporting arguments. Not sure if you're stupid or just stubborn. Point is you're fine with countless things we do/allow as a society that result in death bc you think they're necessary. So do I for the most part. But then there's this one issue where you act like life is the most sacred thing above all else. Well obviously not.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:26 pm to biglego
quote:
I think the reasoning is, not all "life" is equal. A cluster of cells is not a baby. Hell, an unborn 8month fetus is not considered a person under any law I know of. Feticide is not homicide in Louisiana.
Even at a cluster of cells, it's still a human.
quote:
I personally think there's a difference in a third trimester fetus and a week old cluster of unrecognized able cells. And you do too. Otherwise, we'd have obituaries and funerals for every miscarriage. My wife has had two early miscarriages and we didn't have a funeral for either.
There is a difference. But that difference does not mean one is not human.
quote:
There's also the practical wisdom that abortion prevents women from having dangerous back alley coat hanger procedures like they used to. And that would happen.
And that would be terrible. But it still does not excuse the Supreme Court overstepping it's bounds over 40 years ago to make law, a law that has lead to a virtual holocaust for unborn babies.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:27 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Didn't they make that decision when they chose to engage in activity they knew could lead to them becoming pregnant?
I agree with this 1000%. It is a complete lack of responsibility to not be willing to accept possible outcomes, which were known prior to the act. No one can argue this point otherwise. The only reasonable instance for an abortion would be if the mother's life is in jeopardy by having the baby or if the woman became pregnant because she was raped.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:27 pm to OldSouth
quote:
Hopefully more states follow suit and end this insanity.
you're not very smart about the whole legal thing here are you. You just think that tiny ball of cells needs protection. Tell me something when does the soul enter that ball of cells and would a twin ball of cells that devours its twin be a murderer.
just curious cuz we should hash this out if we are going to be writing laws that protect a ball of cells
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:27 pm to ULSU
quote:
If someone wants to abort rather than some unwanted basted kid being born, I see that as a win.
quote:
I do think the time line should be limited to the first few months
So apparently it is only a win if it happens in the first trimester? So it isn't really about the mother's rights in her body?
I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just taking this to its logical conclusion.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:31 pm to slackster
quote:
So apparently it is only a win if it happens in the first trimester? So it isn't really about the mother's rights in her body?
I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just taking this to its logical conclusion
Until the kid is viable, I am for the mom's choice. Once that child has formed enough to be viable, they get the right to live. That's my belief.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:33 pm to slackster
Should Plan B be illegal then? What about birth control? If a zygote is a person then what's to stop sperm and eggs from being considered almost people?
That slippery slope works both ways. At some point there's just got to be a cut off. You could say "oh 18 weeks why not 24. Oh 24 why not 32. Oh 32 why not 40. Oh until birth why not until their one year old outside the womb." But that's just not going to happen.
We've had abortions as a society in some form or another for thousands of years and there's yet to be a mass culture of infanticjde. Yes they're a terrible thing, but sometimes they're a necessary evil. Just like all the things I posted in my response to Darth.
That slippery slope works both ways. At some point there's just got to be a cut off. You could say "oh 18 weeks why not 24. Oh 24 why not 32. Oh 32 why not 40. Oh until birth why not until their one year old outside the womb." But that's just not going to happen.
We've had abortions as a society in some form or another for thousands of years and there's yet to be a mass culture of infanticjde. Yes they're a terrible thing, but sometimes they're a necessary evil. Just like all the things I posted in my response to Darth.
This post was edited on 5/19/16 at 1:34 pm
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:34 pm to Cruiserhog
quote:
protect a ball of cells
8-weeks gestation:
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:34 pm to TechDawg2007
No one denied my chance to be a person and live. Whether I was a real person or not at the moment of conception, no person decided I don't get a shot at life.
I believe I do not have the authority to deny potential life to anything that can (or might already be) human life.
Nothing to do religion or morals - Human rights.
I believe I do not have the authority to deny potential life to anything that can (or might already be) human life.
Nothing to do religion or morals - Human rights.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:34 pm to slackster
There's 2 issues going on here:
1) The fetus cannot survive without the mother until very, very late in the pregnancy.
2) The fetus develops in complexity from a mass of undifferentiated cells.
That is where the 1st or 2nd trimester comes in. Basically a compromise to allow abortions but only before they start to look (and act) like a person.
Not arguing it's right, pointing out why the laws are like that.
1) The fetus cannot survive without the mother until very, very late in the pregnancy.
2) The fetus develops in complexity from a mass of undifferentiated cells.
That is where the 1st or 2nd trimester comes in. Basically a compromise to allow abortions but only before they start to look (and act) like a person.
Not arguing it's right, pointing out why the laws are like that.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:35 pm to Steadyhands
quote:
I agree with this 1000%. It is a complete lack of responsibility to not be willing to accept possible outcomes, which were known prior to the act. No one can argue this point otherwise. The only reasonable instance for an abortion would be if the mother's life is in jeopardy by having the baby or if the woman became pregnant because she was raped
Forcing that mother and father to have the kid they don't want and/or can't handle is worse for society in many many cases, IMO, than her abortion. But you're right, she made a mistake and should be punished for that by having that bastard.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:38 pm to tigerfan88
quote:
Should Plan B be illegal then?
Tough call since there is no way to know if a fertilized egg is present. IIRC, it works in other ways first before it ultimately will prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the mother.
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