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Started By
Message
re: Real bad condo collapse in Surfside, FL
Posted on 6/25/21 at 3:49 pm to bikerack
Posted on 6/25/21 at 3:49 pm to bikerack
quote:Interesting. This seems to indicate that they have a good idea about what caused the collapse, right?
City of Miami officials have ordered citywide inspections of all buildings six stories or taller that are 40 years or older. Announcement comes day after #SurfsideBuildingCollaps
2
Posted on 6/25/21 at 3:50 pm to When in Rome
quote:
Interesting. This seems to indicate that they have a good idea about what caused the collapse, right?
Nah, just a general CYA.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 10:51 pm to CarRamrod
quote:
Sand is 2nd to rock in terms of best building base
quote:
unless liquification comes into play.
Well yeah, but was there an earthquake no one else noticed?
Posted on 6/25/21 at 11:03 pm to beerandt
I don’t think this was the cause but there was that Naval experiment last weekend where they exploded something under the ocean and it registered a 3.x in FL.
Posted on 6/25/21 at 11:46 pm to bikerack
quote:
I don’t think this was the cause but there was that Naval experiment last weekend where they exploded something under the ocean and it registered a 3.x in FL.
Then "why only this one" and "why the delay" would need to be figured out.
Unrelated:
I'm noticing some shear reinforcement red flags, though. Still catching up with the thread.
This post was edited on 6/25/21 at 11:47 pm
Posted on 6/26/21 at 12:00 am to CarRamrod
quote:
that failure look too abrupt to be a rebar corrosion issue IMO.... UNLESS there was major signs of this corrosion that went unrepaired. If there was a major reno going on, that more then likely was the cause,
This was my first thought. Rebar corrosion should have shown spalling or yielding before failing, and with active construction, someone should have noticed long before failing.
quote:
took out something they shouldnt have, too much live load
This combo crossed my mind. I don't remember the factors offhand especially if it's ASL, but if they assumed allowable construction loads from the original specs, and that failure mode didn't account for 100% occupancy, you might have an overloaded roof. That plus "taking something out" would make more sense.
Although maybe not at 3am.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 1:14 am to LSUBoo
quote:
Nah, just a general CYA.
BIngo
City of Miami:
Posted on 6/26/21 at 7:39 am to GCTiger11
My nephew works for Tampa fire. He is on his way down there to help.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 8:28 am to beerandt
quote:
This was my first thought. Rebar corrosion should have shown spalling or yielding before failing, and with active construction, someone should have noticed long before failing.
It's being reported this morning. There was major spalling evident in the underground garage, and exposed rebar. This is coming from an engineering report 3 years ago.
Numerous repairs had been attempted with epoxy, and had failed. That is, they tried to glue the damned thing together and it didn't work.
ETA there are a few pictures out there, at the N.Y. Times site. These seem to depict spalling at the points where a couple of the balconies join to the main structure. It's pretty terrifying that people were standing on those balconies.
This post was edited on 6/26/21 at 8:37 am
Posted on 6/26/21 at 8:41 am to pankReb
Florida is a giant block of LIMESTONE. Not sure what layer is above it and under this building
Posted on 6/26/21 at 8:42 am to USMEagles
Seems to me some pretty major concrete deterioration is evident in this photo, in the part of the building that hasn't collapsed.
I would be surprised if that weren't already visible prior to the collapse.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 8:54 am to LSU82BILL
quote:
The unit owner's policy covers finish items - paint, texture, flooring, plumbing fixtures, cabinets, appliances. Whatever disbursement these unit owners get from the master policy, it won't cover the value of the unit.
Of course, but the individual owners policy’s are still based on the value of the unit. Duh. You can’t get $145,000 policy on a $600,000 unit. Or if you can, it’s extremely clear it will only cover 25% of the cost to repair/ replace which I doubt any insurer would offer.
You can’t just name a price, insurance companies use the appraised values for their premiums. Now those may increase dramatically certainly, but it’s rare they are off by 75%.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 8:56 am to USMEagles
So, one quick for you two since I don't know anything about the engineering aspects of large buildings. Should I look at this event and the one at the hard rock in New Orleans and be thinking "ok, well the way the buildings on 9/11 collapsed totally makes sense then." Bc I was honestly surprised at the way the Hard Rock collapsed at near free fall speed and there was no explosives that did that, it was just structural failure.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:31 am to baldona
You don’t know what you are talking about.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:32 am to TheFritz
quote:
Bc I was honestly surprised at the way the Hard Rock collapsed at near free fall speed and there was no explosives that did that, it was just structural failure.
I'm pretty ignorant on this stuff myself, but I'd point at something called "cascading failure." It's like dominoes falling one after another, but with floors of a building.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:44 am to jscrims
quote:
You don’t know what you are talking about.
You are right, I’m not in insurance but I pay for over $50,000 of insurance/ HOA dues a year on a handful of dwellings. So I do have a little experience on how condo and beach coverage works.
There’s posters trying to place sympathy on people owning waterfront condos in Miami because the values have increased and they may not be able to afford the appropriate insurance to fix or prevent this. That’s an absolute BS excuse, and insurance would be one of their smaller expenses to live there in that building with utilities, taxes, etc. being more. So I may not know everything, but I know enough that to point out that train of thought is BS and should absolutely not be given any sympathy.
There’s no excuse for what happened here, it’s extremely unfortunate but almost assuredly should have been prevented.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 9:55 am to baldona
quote:
Duh. You can’t get $145,000 policy on a $600,000 unit. Or if you can, it’s extremely clear it will only cover 25% of the cost to repair/ replace which I doubt any insurer would offer. You can’t just name a price, insurance companies use the appraised values for their premiums.
The Owners policies, which is an H0-6, is based on an estimated replacement cost of the unit. It has absolutely zero to do with market or appraised value.
When you purchase a condo, you’re paying for location, amenities, etc which are part of that market price. Insurance only focuses on the labor and materials required to repair that unit. I insure hundreds of rental condos in FL and we use Xactware 360 to generate coverage A amounts.
Insurance companies do not use appraised values.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 10:17 am to RLDSC FAN
Interesting.
I’m sure we’ll find out soon if this report went to all the owners and if a full HOA vote was held on the repairs
I’m sure we’ll find out soon if this report went to all the owners and if a full HOA vote was held on the repairs
Posted on 6/26/21 at 11:08 am to RLDSC FAN
quote:
The report added that “failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially.” The problem, he said, was that the waterproofing was laid on a concrete slab that was flat, not sloped in a way that would allow water to run off, an issue he called a “major error” in the original design. The replacement would be “extremely expensive,” he warned, and cause a major disturbance to residents. In the parking garage, which largely sits at the bottom level of the building, part of it under the pool deck, Mr. Morabito said that there were signs of distress and fatigue.
quote:
“Abundant cracking and spalling of varying degrees was observed in the concrete columns, beams, and walls,” Mr. Morabito wrote. He included photos of cracks in the columns of the parking garage as well as concrete crumbling — a process engineers refer to as “spalling” — that exposed steel reinforcements on the garage deck.
quote:
Mr. Morabito noted that previous attempts to patch the concrete with epoxy were failing, resulting in more cracking and spalling. In one such spot, he said, “new cracks were radiating from the originally repaired cracks.” The report also identified a host of other problems: Residents were complaining of water coming through their windows and balcony doors, and the concrete on many balconies also was deteriorating.
quote:
After watching a surveillance video showing the collapse of the building, Evan Bentz, a professor at the University of Toronto and an expert in structural concrete, said that whatever had caused the collapse would have to have been somewhere near the bottom of the building, perhaps around the parking level. Though he had not seen the 2018 report at the time, he said such a collapse could have several possible explanations, including a design mistake, a materials problem, a construction error or a maintenance error. “I’d be surprised if there was just one cause,” Mr. Bentz said. “There would have to be multiple causes for it to have fallen like that.”
This post was edited on 6/26/21 at 11:19 am
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