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Message
re: Real bad condo collapse in Surfside, FL
Posted on 6/26/21 at 11:23 am to baldona
Posted on 6/26/21 at 11:23 am to baldona
quote:
You are right, I’m not in insurance but I pay for over $50,000 of insurance/ HOA dues a year on a handful of dwellings. So I do have a little experience on how condo and beach coverage works.
I pay $50,000 for a car so that means I have experience with a car and then I should know exactly how the engine works. That is your logic.
I’m in insurance. Your thought process isn’t even close to how it works. Not trying to be rude but you are inaccurate.
A HO-6 as pointed out above covers the interior of the structure. It all depends on how the master policy is written and what is covered from that. Then it is the owners responsibility to cover the remaining parts which are typically upgrades, personal property and anything else not covered by the master policy. The master builds the shell of the building and the frame of the units, the HO-6 covers everything else. It is incredibly easy to have an individual policy that covers $10k of contents and $1k of the structure. It is up to the individual and their insurance advisor to make sure those limits are accurate and correct.
2
Posted on 6/26/21 at 11:34 am to RLDSC FAN
quote:
A nearly identical companion property — Champlain Towers North — was built the same year, a few hundred yards up the beach. It was not immediately clear whether any of the issues raised by the engineer in the south project had also been found in the other buildings.
Surfside’s mayor, Charles W. Burkett, said on Friday that he was worried about the stability of the north building but did not feel “philosophically comfortable” ordering people to evacuate.
“I can’t tell you, I can’t assure you, that the building is safe,” he said at a town commission meeting.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 11:49 am to When in Rome
It’s like the connections between the sections were primarily what was keep the building up. That can’t be by design.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 11:55 am to USMEagles
quote:
Numerous repairs had been attempted with epoxy, and had failed. That is, they tried to glue the damned thing together and it didn't work.
No man, they tried to seal the rebar off from the saltwater environment. No one was relying on the structural strength of epoxy.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 12:07 pm to RLDSC FAN
I went to Cuba the week Obama opened up travel. One striking thing I noticed was that all of the mansions that stand on the waterfront are suffering from rebar rot. This is because the dumb shite commies allowed multiple peasant families to live in those homes (driving the owners to go to Florida). None of the new residents actually own the home, which is the property of the government. Consequently, as the concrete walls get damaged, exposing rebar, they don’t fix it.
About every tenth home is gone - either an empty lot or a pile of rubble - and all of the existing homes are hopelessly compromised. You can see corroding rebar where the concrete has broken away. It sounds like the same thing happened to this building. Plus, maybe there was a precipitating event, like the seismic shock and/or the renovations.
About every tenth home is gone - either an empty lot or a pile of rubble - and all of the existing homes are hopelessly compromised. You can see corroding rebar where the concrete has broken away. It sounds like the same thing happened to this building. Plus, maybe there was a precipitating event, like the seismic shock and/or the renovations.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 12:10 pm to Penrod
quote:
No man, they tried to seal the rebar off from the saltwater environment. No one was relying on the structural strength of epoxy.
Sure, "glue it together" is probably an exaggeration, but was epoxy really a valid answer to the problems this building had? It didn't work. It was half-assed.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 12:12 pm to jscrims
quote:
I pay $50,000 for a car so that means I have experience with a car and then I should know exactly how the engine works. That is your logic
The guy made a valid point. Buying insurance for what sounds like 5 or 6 condos, including the negotiations every couple of years, would give someone a level of knowledge short of expertise but well above normal. It is not like buying one $50,000 car; it is like buying a small fleet of cars.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 12:42 pm to Penrod
quote:
No one was relying on the structural strength of epoxy.
Based on the pictures I agree with you but they most definitely use carbon fiber with epoxy to repair or provide additional reinforcement. My brother is an installer and we just called for some on a building in Baton Rouge.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 1:12 pm to USMEagles
quote:
There was major spalling evident in the underground garage, and exposed rebar. This is coming from an engineering report 3 years ago.
I think there's a lot more going on than just that, though. It looks like a lot of the shear failures you can see in pictures are in the wrong place, right on the face of the columns & walls.
See where the collapse stopped on the right side by the bunkbeds. How the deck extends out from the supporting wall? That looks like what a shear failure should look like, if it's got enough shear reinforcement. And that happens to be a critical part of how you prevent a cascading pancake failure.
Whatever the initial cause was, I'm betting bad design / insufficient shear reinforcement is the jet fuel that turned local failure into catastrophic collapse.
ETA:
FYI, Reinforced Concrete design is really ultra conservative in margin of safety and being really obvious before things just collapse.
It should be able to withstand multiple failures like these (below) before things get dangerous.
And even a pancake failure shouldn't cascade, and end up being a local collapse like this one, not a catastrophic one.
Which is why it would be odd for this collapse to just be due to corrosion, without some other event to put things in motion, or some really obvious warnings.
This post was edited on 6/26/21 at 3:01 pm
Posted on 6/26/21 at 1:21 pm to beerandt
quote:If I’m a resident in the identical building that was built around the same time and a few hundred yards away from this one, I’m GTFOing until more info is known.
I think there's a lot more going on than just that, though. It looks like a lot of the shear failures you can see in pictures are in the wrong place, right on the face of the columns & walls.
See where the collapse stopped on the right side by the bunkbeds. How the deck extends out from the supporting wall? That looks like what a shear failure should look like, if it's got enough shear reinforcement. And that happens to be a critical part of how you prevent a cascading pancake failure.
Whatever the initial cause was, I'm betting bad design / insufficient shear reinforcement is the jet fuel that turned local failure into catastrophic collapse.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 1:28 pm to When in Rome
I am sure there are plenty that have already left that building. I am out until a reinspection is done.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 1:47 pm to Penrod
quote:
No man, they tried to seal the rebar off from the saltwater environment. No one was relying on the structural strength of epoxy.
FYI - there was a 500+ unit 33 blocks south of the Champlain Towers that about 15 years ago had to close down for structural repairs. It took 2 1/2 years and a $25 million to make repairs. These unit owners had to move out, continue to pay their mortgage and maintenance fees while also paying rent to another landlord during that time. Then they get hit with $50K assessmsnts for the repairs. You can see why unit owners and associations alike turn a blind eye to these problems.
EDIT - I just remembered the actual reason in was in that building back in like 2004-2005. I was there for a liability claim against the association because a piece of spalling concrete fell off the parking garage ceiling and damaged a resident's car.
This post was edited on 6/27/21 at 8:09 pm
Posted on 6/26/21 at 2:38 pm to beerandt
quote:
beerandt
Isn't that similar to what happened at the Hard Rock New Orleans?
Posted on 6/26/21 at 3:42 pm to USMEagles
quote:
Isn't that similar to what happened at the Hard Rock New Orleans?
Yeah, it was a cascading pancake from near the top down. But it was due to them removing the decking supports before they were supposed to.
Forgive my memory here if the numbers are off, but most concrete is only ~75% of it's design strength after a week, and something around 90% after a month.
They saw it sagging, but I'm not sure of the story after that. Obviously didn't respond quick enough.
This post was edited on 6/26/21 at 3:45 pm
Posted on 6/26/21 at 3:44 pm to beerandt
If you watch the video this place did not pancake from the top down. Collapse started at the bottom.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 4:33 pm to When in Rome
quote:
City of Miami officials have ordered citywide inspections of all buildings six stories or taller that are 40 years or older. Announcement comes day after #SurfsideBuildingCollaps
Interesting. This seems to indicate that they have a good idea about what caused the collapse, right?
No, unfortunately, this is just a knee-jerk reaction from bureaucrats.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 4:51 pm to USMEagles
It wasn't just epoxy smeared on. It was injected into the cracks in an attempt to stop them from spreading.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 5:59 pm to beerandt
ACI calls for 100% at 28 days, however most places make extra cylinders for a 56 day or beyond if 28 does not reach design.
I’ve seen it reach design strength at 14 days or less before. Depends on the concrete company. (And mix) DOT likes to use mixes that reach 4000 in 12 hours for road repair.
I’ve seen it reach design strength at 14 days or less before. Depends on the concrete company. (And mix) DOT likes to use mixes that reach 4000 in 12 hours for road repair.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 6:30 pm to BuckyCheese
quote:
If you watch the video this place did not pancake from the top down. Collapse started at the bottom.
Yeah, I was typing in a rush. I meant they're both cascading pancakes, but top-down for hard rock. This one's bottom up, or at least that first part in the video is.
Obviously there's more than just that happening.
Posted on 6/26/21 at 7:26 pm to Bruco
Hmmmm......
2018 Engineer's estimate to repair
The report and estimates for repairs that weren't completed may prove to be a interesting twist. It will be interesting to see if the residents were apprised of the cost and if they voted on it. Hypothetically, if they voted the assessment down, where would that steer the liability?
2018 Engineer's estimate to repair
The report and estimates for repairs that weren't completed may prove to be a interesting twist. It will be interesting to see if the residents were apprised of the cost and if they voted on it. Hypothetically, if they voted the assessment down, where would that steer the liability?
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