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re: Request Admins to do a CWD sticky MEGA thread
Posted on 12/31/18 at 9:46 am to TheDrunkenTigah
Posted on 12/31/18 at 9:46 am to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
You gonna ban oak trees?
C'mon man. Acorns are distributed throughout the woods, they are only on the ground for a fraction of the year, and the same trees don't usually drop every year.
Corn is piled up in a tiny area, year after year and sometimes year round.
2
Posted on 12/31/18 at 9:50 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Daniel Boone killed 1,000 deer for market in one year. Yes, there have been large deer populations before North America was heavily settled.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 9:51 am to 257WBY
quote:
If corn is the problem, why did this start and spread in N Colorado and Wyoming? You don’t see many feeders out there.
I'm looking at it the other way. It spread out there and they DONT EVEN have feeders. Imagine how bad it could spread here with feeders.
I guess I'm the gullible idiot who thinks that the biologists who've made it their career to study this stuff are the ones who have to best idea of what to do. If they aren't 100% right then I can live with that. When making any decision all you can do is apply the one that has the most evidence and research to back it up and go from there.
Some people's attachment to their corn piles is insane. You're not getting your Constitutional rights violated by not being able to feed deer. And if eventually evidence shows that feeding is not a culprit then they can discontinue the ban.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 9:54 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Yea but there has probably been over 20 threads on this since the MS cases and the same questions are always asked. Just because ODB doesn't get the amount of traffic or has near as many retards as the PB doesn't mean we cant have a sticky.
This post was edited on 12/31/18 at 10:01 am
Posted on 12/31/18 at 10:00 am to 257WBY
I doubt that story. That's more than 3 a day every day. The country was still undeveloped, etc. Maybe it is true though, I wasnt there. Bet he wasnt using bait corn though.
Anyway, what do you propose? Stick to the status quo? We are artificially inflating the remaining woods carrying capacity with feeding, we are transporting live deer and deer parts far from where they were killed, and we are artificially concentrating deer to feed spots. We are doing lots of things to facilitate spreading disease, and many of them are very easy to correct.
CWD or not, they are poor practices and we need to address their necessity.
Anyway, what do you propose? Stick to the status quo? We are artificially inflating the remaining woods carrying capacity with feeding, we are transporting live deer and deer parts far from where they were killed, and we are artificially concentrating deer to feed spots. We are doing lots of things to facilitate spreading disease, and many of them are very easy to correct.
CWD or not, they are poor practices and we need to address their necessity.
This post was edited on 12/31/18 at 10:02 am
Posted on 12/31/18 at 10:04 am to 257WBY
Well to be fair DB was hunting in straight up wilderness. Deer populations today are a lot more concentrated due to mankind and development.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 10:24 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
I doubt that story. That's more than 3 a day every day
Ftr, I read as many as 2,500deer and 100bear per year. Although I think much of DB's greatness comes from folklore. Given the years of his heydays, his guns were smoothbore small caliber flintlocks. Considering that, those numbers seem even harder to believe. Maybe if he had a gang of mounted men on horses helping him...... still hard to imagine.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 11:12 am to Buster180
Buster is right. Prime example was opening day here.
I hadn’t fed anything right up to opening day. Went in the morning saw 10 deer from very young with does to spikes to a young 6 point. Passing thru in 2s and 3s.
An acorn here and there.
At noon I put out sack of rice bran on 3 spots I could see.
All of a sudden there were 8 deer on one of the spots. I killed a cull old 8 point out of that herd.
Feed does concentrate the deer and this would help spread a contagion.
I hadn’t fed anything right up to opening day. Went in the morning saw 10 deer from very young with does to spikes to a young 6 point. Passing thru in 2s and 3s.
An acorn here and there.
At noon I put out sack of rice bran on 3 spots I could see.
All of a sudden there were 8 deer on one of the spots. I killed a cull old 8 point out of that herd.
Feed does concentrate the deer and this would help spread a contagion.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 11:27 am to biggsc
quote:
Some folks make a living from organizing deer hunts like Levellwood in West Greene, AL
Is that what you do? Turkey hunted there before. Isn't that a high fence operation now?
Posted on 12/31/18 at 11:31 am to Buster180
quote:
C'mon man. Acorns are distributed throughout the woods, they are only on the ground for a fraction of the year, and the same trees don't usually drop every year. Corn is piled up in a tiny area, year after year and sometimes year round.
Anything that causes deer to concentrate in an area spreads the disease. I’m using acorns to illustrate there are natural pathways besides feed. Again, I could give a shite if supplemental feed was banned nationwide today. Would save me a lot of headaches actually. Still, pretending that supplemental feed is a major part of this is lazy and ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst.
Deer are social animals. The disease is going to spread through their natural interactions and young buck dispersal no matter what. Even if you kill every single infected deer the disease will persist in the soil and infect the next deer that passes by. It is a prion that is immune to heat, uv light, disinfectants, and any known treatment. It can persist for years in the environment without a host.
I’m not picking on anyone, but talking about what needs to be done to stop it highlights that you don’t understand the issue. There is NOTHING that can be done to stop it. It’s here, and it’s here to stay. The conversation should be about how we’re going to deal with it as people who want to continue to enjoy deer hunting as we know it and what the lasting effects will be.
There has been a pitiful amount of research (but some) into how deer populations and predators learn to cope with it over generations, and how it may transmit to other species. Those are the only two questions left to answer, because it’s way too late to ask if it will spread.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 11:37 am to TheDrunkenTigah
The only reason it hasn’t been found in pretty much every region of the country is because there isn’t enough testing. It’s been in Arkansas for 20+ years and the only reason it was found was because an elk tested positive.
For the record, the “hot spot” in Arkansas has seen deer numbers and quality explode over the last 20 years, all while CWD was present.
For the record, the “hot spot” in Arkansas has seen deer numbers and quality explode over the last 20 years, all while CWD was present.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 11:43 am to TheDrunkenTigah
That’s right. Pointing fingers at corner or high fences isn’t going to fix it. Scrapes probably transmit as much deer fluid as anything.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 11:47 am to Raz4back
Right. The biologists who study this will tell you it disproportionally effects the old and weak. As downshift said it may be acting as a check against inflated deer density giving healthy deer a better habitat. These eradication efforts are coming from up top to prevent public panic and show some kind of response. They will be the first to admit it’s not going to accomplish anything in the long run.
My only point here is everyone is freaking out about stopping it, and I understand that, but the real conversation needs to be about how we as hunters are going to get used to it.
Strickland from the state deer lab admits he gets every deer he kills tested, but after seeing he research doesn’t wait on the results to eat them. Only after he knows the deer is negative will he feed it to his kids, because he couldn’t live with himself if they got something from it. Yet he knows that in actuality this disease poses almost no risk to humans and the jury is still out on whether it’s even that bad for deer overall.
My only point here is everyone is freaking out about stopping it, and I understand that, but the real conversation needs to be about how we as hunters are going to get used to it.
Strickland from the state deer lab admits he gets every deer he kills tested, but after seeing he research doesn’t wait on the results to eat them. Only after he knows the deer is negative will he feed it to his kids, because he couldn’t live with himself if they got something from it. Yet he knows that in actuality this disease poses almost no risk to humans and the jury is still out on whether it’s even that bad for deer overall.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 12:48 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
The biologists who study this will tell you it disproportionally effects the old and weak.
At the public meeting in Marshall county they kept saying the disease is most prevelant in mature bucks. 2 of the deer found in Ms were does and 2, 1 buck and a doe were 1.5 years old.
Finding it in young deer indicates to me, that it has been here for a while.
Like you said, the real question is how we as hunters plan to deal with it being here.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 1:10 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
disproportionally effects the old and weak
I haven't seen anything that reads like that. From what I've seen is that deer that get "infected" rarely live past 2.5. And it has nothing to do with being "weak". Perfectly healthy young deer can be infected.
quote:
he couldn’t live with himself if they got something from it. Yet he knows that in actuality this disease poses almost no risk to humans
Sounds like Strickland has seen some smoke and isn't too convinced about "almost no risk to humans" if he is preventing his kids from eating possibly infected meat.
In a laboratory setting we've already proven that the prion has an ability to propagate in a primate. Granted that was in the lab under extreme measures but diseases jump from species to species all the time.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 1:22 pm to MSWebfoot
Yes, bucks are twice as likely as does to contract it because they travel more, and people are more discriminate about the age of a buck. People rarely take the time to age a doe or give her another year, so harvest is a bit more evenly distributed. Older animals are more likely to contract it simply because they’ve lived long enough to have more opportunities to contract it. Being a chronic disease it also takes a long time to manifest into actual symptoms. All that combined means mature bucks are the most likely deer in the herd to have progressed CWD.
As others have said once testing is more uniform there’s a good chance we find it’s everywhere already. Younger deer are no less susceptible, the odds just haven’t caught up with them yet that they either get shot or show the signs. It also makes the animal more susceptible to secondary infections. The deer that tested positive in issaquena county actually died of pneumonia, but he likely never gets tested if the guy hadn’t literally watched him die from the stand. It’s not really surprising that it’s taken longer to detect the disease in places where the average age of harvest is low. Out west where they manage for maturity the prevalence is higher just because there are more mature animals.
As others have said once testing is more uniform there’s a good chance we find it’s everywhere already. Younger deer are no less susceptible, the odds just haven’t caught up with them yet that they either get shot or show the signs. It also makes the animal more susceptible to secondary infections. The deer that tested positive in issaquena county actually died of pneumonia, but he likely never gets tested if the guy hadn’t literally watched him die from the stand. It’s not really surprising that it’s taken longer to detect the disease in places where the average age of harvest is low. Out west where they manage for maturity the prevalence is higher just because there are more mature animals.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 1:38 pm to Chuker
quote:
I haven't seen anything that reads like that. From what I've seen is that deer that get "infected" rarely live past 2.5. And it has nothing to do with being "weak". Perfectly healthy young deer can be infected.
Everything I’ve read and heard suggests the exact opposite. Rarely do deer show symptoms before 2.5. The disease has an incubation period of 18 months and may take another year to cause progressed symptoms. They agree that CWD is 100% fatal in deer, but It takes years. A deer that’s stressed will show symptoms quicker and is more susceptible to secondary infection. Most deer are susceptible to being shot before they show symptoms.
quote:
Sounds like Strickland has seen some smoke and isn't too convinced about "almost no risk to humans" if he is preventing his kids from eating possibly infected meat. In a laboratory setting we've already proven that the prion has an ability to propagate in a primate. Granted that was in the lab under extreme measures but diseases jump from species to species all the time.
You’d have to ask him but he was pretty clear he doesn’t feel in danger himself, it’s just that he feels differently about his children and being responsible for them.
The studies done on monkeys have been largely inconclusive, and as I said this is where the focus needs to be. They’ve been able to infect spider monkeys and pigs by essentially force feeding them the disease and injecting prions into their spinal column. It was an absolute worst case scenario evaluation and hasn’t been repeated. When they tried the same thing on macaques, which are genetically much closer to humans than pigs or spider monkeys, the results were all over the place.
They believe this jumped from sheep to deer, so yes of course they should be investigating if it can mutate and jump to humans, but currently the risk is low. In areas where one in three deer harvested is positive no one has gotten sick. Not saying there can’t be a first but the risk is being sensationalized.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 1:54 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
Ahhh well, I guess we should just keep doing unnecessary things that facilitate spreading.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 1:56 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
I didn’t say that. What I did say is that the focus doesn’t need to be on whether or not bubba box stand throwing corn spreads the disease. It does, but it also doesn’t mean jack shite in the grand scheme of things.
Posted on 12/31/18 at 2:03 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
disease has an incubation period of 18 months and may take another year to cause progressed symptoms
so it sounds a deer that is born with cwd has about 2.5 years to live.
But I get your overall point and also recognize that you're much better read on the subject than I am.
Although I still don't get why so many take offense to banning baiting despite that is what biologists recommend. If it helps a bit then isn't that worth it? Ftr I don't pretend ending baiting will stop the spread of the disease. Its just one little thing we can do to maybe slow it and reduce the number of transmissions.
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