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Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:03 pm to Revelator
Our criminals are not the same as their criminals.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:12 pm to Revelator
quote:
One of the things that German prisons have are, weekend leaves, even for murderers. They are allowed to go home for the weekends, without supervision or surveillance and then return after their visits.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:13 pm to SabiDojo
The commentator on the show asked the murderer if he ever thought about escaping, and he said no.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:14 pm to Tigerlaff
quote:
So in other words, you can lower recidivism at the expense of having actual justice
Hit the nail on the head.
Just going through a hypothetical - Terrible Guy murders your daughter. Is it justice to have the criminal put in that type of cush facility with freedom on the weekend to commit a crime again?
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:16 pm to scrooster
quote:
We have gang banging thugs in this country that would rape and kill in order to be admitted into that country club bullshite.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:19 pm to Revelator
We have a completely different criminal element here in America. It's not even close.
Do you know what's one of the more common reasons I hear a defendant say why they murdered someone?
"I don't know. I was bored."
I wish I were joking about that.
We have a sect of society that views human life as fungible as a dollar bill. They see prison as a place they are bound to go to one day. Chances are they have a close family member already there.
Do you know what's one of the more common reasons I hear a defendant say why they murdered someone?
"I don't know. I was bored."
I wish I were joking about that.
We have a sect of society that views human life as fungible as a dollar bill. They see prison as a place they are bound to go to one day. Chances are they have a close family member already there.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:19 pm to CivilTiger83
quote:
Just going through a hypothetical - Terrible Guy murders your daughter. Is it justice to have the criminal put in that type of cush facility with freedom on the weekend to commit a crime again?
They actually showed one of the murderers sitting in a park with his wife and son eating ice cream. I snap you not!
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:21 pm to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
Hmmm - not sure I agree with that.
I was actually making reference to the German Turk underclass, which because of its connections to Turkey, gives it a weird social position that other immigrant underclass communities, especially ones related to North Africa, do not have. Germany in the 1960's recruited from Turkish backwaters, so much so that Turkish people in Istanbul and Ankara viewed those groups that left as backward, but because of their relative wealth in Germany, are comfortably middle class now in Turkey. There are some 3 million Turks who have some sort of residency in Germany who have returned to Turkey, and the social networks this situation has created is something that should be studied, as I'd argue that this corridor helps insulate this group from being stuck in a perpetual underclass. The crime rate among German Turks is not among the top ten among immigrant ethnic groups though they are mostly lower class.
quote:
I know you know this, but I think it's important to distinguish between all these European countries when we make these comparisons. France and the UK are still pretty damn violent for developed countries, probably every bit as violent as the U.S. is. They just don't kill each other as much because they don't have the same access to weapons. Germany, the Netherlands, and the Nordics are comparatively very peaceful, even among the more impoverished classes. Culture is everything with this stuff.
I completely agree. The shape criminal networks take in the Low Countries is even different from Germany and France, as the immigrant communities in the Low Countries are seemingly interested in sex trafficking, but it's difficult to tell if the "loverboy" phenomenon is widespread. France's criminal history, from Corsican mafia ties to new networks with North Africans leading them is intensely interesting to me.
quote:
What is this The Prophet of which you speak? Google didn't help me there.
LINK
It's a French film which tells the story of the rise of an Algerian Frenchman through the prison system. It, along with La Haine, are superb films about the very interesting immigrant experience in France, and are good films in their own right.
This post was edited on 3/6/18 at 9:50 pm
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:22 pm to Revelator
One of the characteristics shared by most prisoners, especially men, is a lack of empathy. Most societies downplay this most human of qualities in males.
While females are raised to be empathetic and sympathetic, very necessary traits for mothers, males are conditioned to be apathetic to the closeness we associate with female interactions. Emotional displays are considered to be a weakness in males.
Boys are taught to suppress emotions from a very young age while girls experience the opposite. They are free to cry, complain and to put their emotions into words and actions.
Little wonder, then, that male prisoners display low or no empathy regarding others. I think this is primarily a learned characteristic and that rehabilitation should focus on it to prevent recidivism. Maybe this what the Germans are doing.
I would love to see an experiment wherein a sample of male prisoners were given puppies to raise and keep as their own. In my life I've encountered so many men who use their dogs as substitutes for the people with whom they could, and would, express themselves if that wasn't a social no-no. No wonder we say that dogs are man's best friend.
It's my thought that the way to reduce recidivism in American prisons is to teach empathy to male prisoners, and maybe even some emotion-deprived female prisoners. There are unrealistic expectations we place upon men in our society. Being strong is one thing but that doesn't mean that they have to be emotionally isolated.
While females are raised to be empathetic and sympathetic, very necessary traits for mothers, males are conditioned to be apathetic to the closeness we associate with female interactions. Emotional displays are considered to be a weakness in males.
Boys are taught to suppress emotions from a very young age while girls experience the opposite. They are free to cry, complain and to put their emotions into words and actions.
Little wonder, then, that male prisoners display low or no empathy regarding others. I think this is primarily a learned characteristic and that rehabilitation should focus on it to prevent recidivism. Maybe this what the Germans are doing.
I would love to see an experiment wherein a sample of male prisoners were given puppies to raise and keep as their own. In my life I've encountered so many men who use their dogs as substitutes for the people with whom they could, and would, express themselves if that wasn't a social no-no. No wonder we say that dogs are man's best friend.
It's my thought that the way to reduce recidivism in American prisons is to teach empathy to male prisoners, and maybe even some emotion-deprived female prisoners. There are unrealistic expectations we place upon men in our society. Being strong is one thing but that doesn't mean that they have to be emotionally isolated.
This post was edited on 3/6/18 at 9:24 pm
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:36 pm to Kentucker
"learned characteristics"....Nurture. Don't forget Nature...in the form of high Testosterone, K. Genes run this show...outside of intellectual override.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:41 pm to Revelator
quote:
American's involved in running our prison systems are studying Germany's to see why they have a lower recidivism rat
Umm because their prisoners are a higher percentage white Anglo than America’s prisoners
This post was edited on 3/6/18 at 9:42 pm
Posted on 3/6/18 at 9:43 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
quote:
Hmmm - not sure I agree with that.
I was actually making reference to the German Turk underclass, which because of its connections to Turkey, gives it a weird social position that other immigrant underclass communities, especially ones related to North Africa, do not have. Germany in the 1960's recruited from Turkish backwaters, so much so that Turkish people in Istanbul and Ankara viewed those groups that left as backward, but because of their relative wealth of Germany, are comfortably middle class now in Turkey. There are some 3 million Turks who have some sort of residency in Germany who have returned to Turkey, and the social networks this situation has created is something that should be studied, as I'd argue that this corridor helps insulate this group from being stuck in a perpetual underclass. The crime rate among German Turks is not among the top ten among immigrant ethnic groups though they are mostly lower class.
Interesting. I know a decent bit about Turks in Germany, but I did not know that.
Those European societies never really had ethnic-based underclasses (though the Irish in the UK and Arabs in France have been there a good long time) until the 1960's or so, but I just can't help but think of revolution after revolution, especially in France, prior to WWI as a strong sign of a restive underclass.
quote:
I completely agree. The shape criminal networks take in the Low Countries is even different from Germany and France, as the immigrant communities in the Low Countries are seemingly interested in sex trafficking, but it's difficult to tell if the "loverboy" phenomenon is widespread. France's criminal history, from Corsican mafia ties to new networks with North Africans leading them is intensely interesting to me.
Low Country immigrants tend to be North African, from what I can tell. I've never been to that part of Africa, but I can tell you, firsthand, the "loverboy" thing is fricking everywhere in Iraq.
quote:
quote:
What is this The Prophet of which you speak? Google didn't help me there.
LINK
It's a French film which tells the story of the rise of an Algerian Frenchman through the prison system. It, along with La Haine, are superb films about the very interesting immigrant experience in France, and are good films in their own right.
Thank you.
This post was edited on 3/6/18 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 3/6/18 at 10:22 pm to Revelator
quote:
Germany's to see why they have a lower recidivism rate, less prison violence and better overall prisoner satisfaction.
German prisons are just camps that help you learn to focus and concentrate.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 10:25 pm to SlowFlowPro
I would think some crimes should be dealt with more by rehabilitation, while others punishment.
Things like rape, murder, molestation etc deserve punishment.
Things like anger issues leading to assault, repeat theft, drugs, etc could be fixed through rehab.
Things like rape, murder, molestation etc deserve punishment.
Things like anger issues leading to assault, repeat theft, drugs, etc could be fixed through rehab.
Posted on 3/6/18 at 10:32 pm to deltaland
quote:
I would think some crimes should be dealt with more by rehabilitation, while others punishment. Things like rape, murder, molestation etc deserve punishment. Things like anger issues leading to assault, repeat theft, drugs, etc could be fixed through rehab.
Yep. I don't think putting people who are in prison for selling pot with rapists and murderers is a good plan.
Posted on 3/7/18 at 1:12 am to Revelator
quote:
The guy running the German prison system went out of his way to say they don't believe in punishment. They only stress rehabilitation.
Sounds like Louisiana public schools
Posted on 3/7/18 at 1:23 am to MintBerry Crunch
Nm
This post was edited on 3/7/18 at 3:28 am
Posted on 3/7/18 at 2:19 am to Revelator
quote:
Almost all the prisoners were white and German. It would never work here because we have a melting pot of multi racial/ multi ethnic population.
What if we segregated our prisons, would it work with White American prisoners?
Posted on 3/7/18 at 2:24 am to Revelator
quote:
They are allowed to go home for the weekends, without supervision or surveillance and then return after their visits.
lol let’s send them some of Angola’s finest and see how that works out.
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