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Started By
Message
re: A biblical warning about our times
Posted on 2/10/22 at 4:04 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 2/10/22 at 4:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
We can have civil, productive conversations without being experts on every position our conversational opponent (so to speak) adheres to. It's also why asking questions is very important.
But you and I already had our discussions and we got nowhere because you aren't here to learn anything.
I read portions of this document, and I note that nowhere is it footnoted to identify its support from Scripture and other documents. Nowhere in this document is any analysis presented for any of the conclusions stated in the document. LINK
Is this your church? I note that there are many other versions of Protestant churches Confessions of Faith. This is completely logical because there are in fact, tens of thousands of different Protestant sects - all of them teaching a different "truth" they they all say comes directly from the Holy Spirit.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 4:12 pm
1
Posted on 2/10/22 at 4:29 pm to Revelator
quote:
Then the sinner in an act of repentance acknowledges his sinfulness
How specifically is this done?
I can agree with everything else you said just not sure if this is enough based on what the scripture says about baptism or being born again by water and the spirit.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 4:43 pm to Revelator
quote:
Sure, in the Bible. A book written by men under the unction of the Holy Spirit.
I’m not interested in some creed of man.
If you don't care to learn anything about the basis for the Roman Catholic Faith in the Catechism, then don't presume to argue theology with a Catholic.
You choose to follow the traditional beliefs of your Baptist upbringing - a creed and tradition written by men like Zwingli and Spurgeon writing over 1,500 years after Christ founded his Church. You choose to believe the traditional belief of the Baptists that Baptism forgives no sin whatsoever and that the Eucharist does nothing because it is a mere gesture. These are your traditions - the traditions of your particular Protestant sect. There are many other versions of Protestant tradition because there are tens of thousands of different sects of Protestants.
Baptism is regenerative. It forgives sins in and of itself. John the Baptist's version of Baptism did this. Do you dare argue that Christ's version of Baptism is weaker and less effective than John the Baptists Baptism? That's what the Baptist Faith says, and it makes no sense. Foo Man Choo's Presbyterian faith disagrees with you on this issue, by the way. For some reason that a Presbyterian can't explain, the Presbys agree with the Catholics on this issue.
If you could sit down with your Bible alone and figure it all out by yourself, there wouldn't be 45,000 different sects of the Protestant religion - each one insisting that "the Holy Spirit says that mine is the only right way."
Study, research, meditation and analysis of all of the theological documents and all of the early Christian thinkers is important.
"Be not like horse and mule, unintelligent,
needing bridle and bit,"
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 4:47 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 5:03 pm to Champagne
quote:
If you don't care to learn anything about the basis for the Roman Catholic Faith in the Catechism, then don't presume to argue theology with a Catholic.
It doesn’t matter if the person who I am talking too is Catholic, Buddhists, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. There is only one way to be saved.
quote:
If you could sit down with your Bible alone and figure it all out by yourself, there wouldn't be 45,000 different sects of the Protestant religion - each one insisting that "the Holy Spirit says that mine is the only right way."
Ask any layman Catholic to explain any of the many Catholic positions on anything, and you’ll get more than 45,000 answers.
Just because y’all aren’t officially broken up into sects, doesn’t mean y’all believe the same things.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 5:05 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 5:06 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
How specifically is this done?
Simple, through prayer and a public profession
Posted on 2/10/22 at 5:07 pm to Revelator
quote:
Simple, through prayer and a public profession
Got a scripture passage for that?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 5:08 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
Got a scripture passage for that
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 5:12 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:We need both forgiveness for sin and positive righteousness in order to be able to be in the presence of God in Heaven. Those things come from the double imputation on the cross: when Jesus died, He took our sins upon Himself to pay the debt that we owe, and at the same time, His work imputes His positive righteousness to us that we receive by faith. It was a once-for-all-time transaction, so we don't have to keep drawing from the well of righteousness to cover our continual sin.
We don't pay to our salvation only a God-man could possibly pay the debt due to sin.
What the disagreement seems to be is about how do we obtain forgiveness from God.
quote:Baptism doesn't produce forgiveness of sin. Baptism is a covenantal sign and seal of our relationship with God through Christ that God gives His people.
You seem to suggest that when one is baptized he is forgiven forever even for future sins.
quote:All you have explained is a method for removing the guilt of sin, but it does nothing to make us righteous before God. Baptism doesn't pay for sin (or apply Christ's work to us), and neither does confession of sin.
We teach that when we are baptized we are cleansed by the blood of the Lord flowing from the cross, and that completely cleanses us from sin, If I were to die seconds after being baptized I would go to heaven! However, man sins again and needs God's mercy. Therefore when you go to confession you are not sacrificing Christ again, or doing something on your own to receive forgiveness. It's just the same grace God gave you at Baptism, forgiveness, is given to you in confession. (Slightly more complicated but the same idea.) We are cleansed from our sin and again if we die right after going to confession we will go to heaven.
As I said, we don't just need to be forgiven for our sins, but we need positive righteousness to come before God. We cannot produce that positive righteousness because we continue to sin and need forgiveness for it. When God looks upon the Christian who is so by faith, God doesn't see us as sinners, but He sees us clothed in the righteousness of His son, whose garments we adorn by faith.
quote:The reason why the Mass is called the Sacrifice of the Mass is because when you partake, you are partaking of Christ's sacrifice right then and there in physical space and time. Whether God is outside of time or not is not really pertinent, because Jesus' death on the cross happened in space and time--in Jerusalem, 2000 years ago--to go along with the recipients partaking of the Mass in space and time. Functionally, the Mass is a re-sacrificing of Christ, over and over again, and the Catholic Catechism even calls it a sacrifice, though it is claimed to be a re-presentation by Catholics in its defense.
God exists outside of time, he can apply the ransom of his son's death as many times as he wants. Our sacraments don't sacrifice Christ again but instead we participate in the one sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
Hebrews chapters 7, 9, and 10 clearly call out the nature of the sacrifice of Christ, that it was offered once, not repeatedly.
Moreover, several times we are told that we have salvation now and justification now, not merely in the age to come, if we have faith in Christ's atoning work on the cross (1 John 1:9; Rom. 5:1,9).
quote:The Bible doesn't differentiate between mortal and venial sins. Ezekiel 18 repeats, "the soul who sins shall die". Paul says in Romans 5 that sin came into the world through Adam and sin spread to all humanity, and that we all sin, deserving death. Sin deserves death because of God, not because of us. A sin against God is cosmic treason, no matter what kind of sin it is, and therefore it deserves eternal punishment.
Why the need for purgatory? I think the best way to describe it is thinking of temporal punishment vs eternal punishment. Catholic's teach there are serious (mortal) sins and less serious (venial) sins. Deadly sins vs undeadly sins as St. John talks about.
Mortal sin deserves eternal punishment complete separation from God and Hell.
However non-deadly sin doesn't involve eternal punishment but temporal punishment. If one doesn't pay off temporal punishment in this life, he will need purification in purgatory. There is more to it but that should get you started on purgatory. Yes, the word purgatory isn't in the Bible but fire and purification are mentioned, while I'm sure we will disagree I believe that points to the purification after death. (1 Peter 1:7, 1 Corinthians 3:15)
The concept of purgatory is based on bad biblical theology.
quote:We receive God's grace through faith in Christ. Faith, itself, is a gift from God. Therefore, if God has given us faith, then we receive God's grace in forgiveness of sin as well as the righteousness of Christ. We don't need to look to additional sacrifices. We don't need to be baptized to be forgiven of sins because baptism doesn't save, and partaking in drinking wine and eating bread doesn't save. It is the reality that those sacraments point to (Jesus Christ) that saves.
Finally, God's grace forgives all sins. But as I said it matters how you receive that grace. But again you guys seem to have a problem with us cooperating with God's grace.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 5:30 pm to FooManChoo
Foo, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains in detail and in footnotes with analysis and citations from Scripture that you are absolutely wrong about everything you claim to be true WRT theology.
Simply saying it is so doesn't make it so! You've got to show your work.
Catholictigerfan, if you are not familiar with the Catechism and prepared to refer to it to support your arguments, you might as well argue with a Brick Wall. You are wasting your time.
If you are not prepared to cite to the Catechism you have abandoned your best weapon in these kinds of conversations.
Simply saying it is so doesn't make it so! You've got to show your work.
Catholictigerfan, if you are not familiar with the Catechism and prepared to refer to it to support your arguments, you might as well argue with a Brick Wall. You are wasting your time.
If you are not prepared to cite to the Catechism you have abandoned your best weapon in these kinds of conversations.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 5:34 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 6:55 pm to Revelator
quote:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
ok I got it.
But what about Jesus words that say “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
while not a direct mention of baptism it clearly is about baptism.
and a direct mention of baptism by fire and the Holy Spirit by John the Baptist.
"I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire."
It seems both of these passages point to the necessity of baptism for salvation. Jesus himself said you cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you are born by water and the Holy Spirit. The quote from St. John the Baptist connects baptism to what Jesus says to Nicodemus.
BTW the baptismal rite does include a confession of ones faith and a renunciation of sin. At-least in the Catholic Church. But the Church teaches that only the formula I baptize you in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit and water are all that is necessary for baptism to be valid.
Ok back to baptism. The Catechism which my Catholic friend wants me to post, says this about the prefigurement of baptism in the Old Testament.
quote:
1217 In the liturgy of the Easter Vigil, during the blessing of the baptismal water, the Church solemnly commemorates the great events in salvation history that already prefigured the mystery of Baptism:
Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs,
which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power.
In Baptism we use your gift of water,
which you have made a rich symbol
of the grace you give us in this sacrament.
1218 Since the beginning of the world, water, so humble and wonderful a creature, has been the source of life and fruitfulness. Sacred Scripture sees it as “overshadowed” by the Spirit of God: (344; 694)
At the very dawn of creation
your Spirit breathed on the waters,
making them the wellspring of all holiness.
1219 The Church has seen in Noah’s ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it “a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water”: (701, 845)
The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.
1220 If water springing up from the earth symbolizes life, the water of the sea is a symbol of death and so can represent the mystery of the cross. By this symbolism Baptism signifies communion with Christ’s death. (1010)
1221 But above all, the crossing of the Red Sea, literally the liberation of Israel from the slavery of Egypt, announces the liberation wrought by Baptism:
You freed the children of Abraham from the slavery of Pharaoh,
bringing them dry-shod through the waters of the Red Sea,
to be an image of the people set free in Baptism.
1222 Finally, Baptism is prefigured in the crossing of the Jordan River by which the People of God received the gift of the land promised to Abraham’s descendants, an image of eternal life. The promise of this blessed inheritance is fulfilled in the New Covenant.
one last point, baptism in the Catholic Church is understood to be a participation in the very death of Jesus Christ. Not a literal death but a spiritual one, where we die to sin and raise again to a new life in Christ.
how about some ancient Christians speaking on the mater.
quote:
Shepherd of Hermas
‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’”
quote:
CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
quote:
JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
“Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood”
quote:
AUGUSTINE
“[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too”
Some of what they say may be in error but what I'm trying to prove is that at-least for the first few centuries of the Church Baptism was seen as necessary for salvation.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 6:57 pm to Champagne
quote:
Catholictigerfan, if you are not familiar with the Catechism and prepared to refer to it to support your arguments, you might as well argue with a Brick Wall. You are wasting your time.
If you are not prepared to cite to the Catechism you have abandoned your best weapon in these kinds of conversations.
arguing on a message board is mostly going to be arguing with a brick wall.
But I quoted the Catechism just now in my above post! Also some Church Fathers who speak about the necessity of baptism. which they (REV and FOO) surprisingly, to me, reject.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 7:05 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 6:57 pm to L.A.
quote:
quote: Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew Could not this verse be simply talking about Jesus appearing again to the disciples after he had risen to the Father and offered up his sacrifice for the sins of man? Doesn't seem to be the context. Here is the verse again, including the verse preceding it: quote: Matthew 16:27-28 (NIV)27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” He seems to be talking about an apocalyptic event
Definitely 2 verses and 2 events. (1)The Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. (2)then Jesus follows up with what they can expect to see shortly: “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Jesus continues building His kingdom even today and will continue until the Father God says so. His kingdom exists now and more of us will be added.
There are 2 future events that these disciples saw: (event 1) Matthew 17, the transfiguration where Peter, James and John saw Jesus in his radiant glory with Moses & Elijah and the heard the voice of God the father telling them to listen to his son. (event 2)Post resurrection Jesus, who appeared to hundreds of people over 40 days before he ascended into heaven to prepare a place for His sheep, the people of His kingdom. These events are not written in the order of occurrence. Jesus left them (and us) with the ultimate event and then level set the disciples expectations for what they would see soon with their own eyes before they pass. Reread Matthew 17 and 18 with this in mind and see if it clears up for you.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 7:04 pm to Champagne
quote:
If you don't care to learn anything about the basis for the Roman Catholic Faith in the Catechism, then don't presume to argue theology with a Catholic
I'm not discounting any of your arguments, but why in God's name do I have to enter the pigpen to kill a pig?
That's like saying you can't argue the tenets for or against Mormonism, Masons, or Islam without first being in it.
That's a terrible premise for an argument to argue against something with its own tenets. Protagorian.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 7:33 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
But I quoted the Catechism just now in my above post! Also some Church Fathers who speak about the necessity of baptism. which they (REV and FOO) surprisingly, to me, reject.
Very good. Pardon my oversight in not noticing.
Of course both Foo and Rev MUST insist that Baptism is no more than a mere gesture that has absolutely no supernatural consequences. They MUST insist because they are absolutely chained to their False Tradition of FAITH ALONE. If Baptism Saves than Faith Alone is False. So, they are absolutely chained to the fake notion about Baptism having no supernatural consequence whatsoever.
Tell them that NOWHERE in the Bible is their "Faith Alone" tradition proven. Faith Alone is a tradition invented by men over 1,500 years after Christ established his Church. Faith Alone is absent from any Christian theological writing or discourse until invented by men 1,500 years after Christ.
Tell them that this notion about the uselessness of Baptism was completely UNKNOWN in three thousand years of Jewish and Christian theology until it was invented by Martin Luther.
It's all explained in the Catholic Catechism, which is extensively footnoted with citations to Scripture and the teachings of Jesus that He handed down to the Apostles.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 8:03 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I won't continue the Matt. 25 discussion,
same here we've beaten it to death so to speak.
quote:
What you are teaching is that justification is based not just on what Christ has done, but what we continue to do.
no I don't, or if I have I'm in error.
ok my summary of what the council of Trent says which I believe will explain what justification is in eyes of the Church. read it for yourself if you like LINK
Basically, as I believe you said, by Adams sin all are justly due death, but God through his holy prophets (the OT) promised he would save us from our sinfulness by adopting us as his sons. "He died for all. But not all receive the benefit of his death" basically saying only those who that grace is given to by God.
It next quotes John 3:5 and Titus 3:5, which by the way rejects the idea of a works based initial salvation. It mentions how the spirit moves in the person to move them to conversion and justification, or accepting that justification. One is also moved to renounce sin and profess faith in God before the act of baptism itself. After this it quotes Matthew 28:19.
I thought I quote this next part.
quote:
This disposition, or preparation, justification itself follows, which is not merely the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby man from unjust becomes just, and from an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to the hope of eternal life
I'll quote this too.
quote:
But whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith, and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we be therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons; but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace itself of justification.
We seem to agree on all the above unless I'm mistaken.
But here on out Chapter X on out is probably where we disagree.
After we have been justified (initial justification, without which salvation is not possible) We increase in righteousness and holiness. Next it says that just because we are justified before God doesn't mean we don't have to practice the commandments. It explains that even the just can fall into minor sins (venial). It also says God never deserts those he has given justification unless a justified man deserts God. It goes on to speak about confession and how when one falls into mortal sin he loses justification but can regain it through the grace of the sacrament. It also explains the difference between eternal punishment and temporal punishment, how confession forgives eternal punishment, but doesn't always forgive temporal punishment (this may be beyond our discussion here) Finally, it speaks about good works done by those who have remained justified or lost it and regained it through confession. Basically how we will increase our reward by good works.
I guess for us, justification is a process a life long process, but for you it's a single moment in time. Am I correct on your position?
quote:
The reason I said that Catholics are semi-pelagians
quickly on this, as mentioned before with Trent, our initial justification is only through God's grace, our ongoing justification growing in faith in holiness is only through God's grace. How do I define God's grace. There is more than one meaning of grace and it depends on the circumstance. But Saving Grace is the grace by which we are justified before God. Grace can also be a general blessing of God towards his people. Grace can be him coming to assistance of those in need.
quote:
Is the "natural man" able to please God (by works or otherwise)? The Bible teaches that the answer is "no", but only by faith can man please God, and faith is a gift of God that comes through the Spirit by regeneration.
By himself man cannot please God, only God's grace can make us pleasing to him. I thought I discussed this.
quote:
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I believe that we are free to sin but not to obey or please God prior to our regeneration, and then once we are regenerated, we are free to sin or not sin, but the remnants of our sinful nature continue to work within us, tempting us to sin and we often times give in.
ok, I don't agree with every work we do good or evil before we are justified is sinful, but I would agree with what you said outside of that.
I'm jumping down too much to respond to
quote:
God chooses those according to His purpose (Rom. 9), not according to what they have done
ok but this doesn't solve the problem I brought up. If God's chooses us according to his purpose how does that make God all loving? What I mean by this how does an all loving God choose to save some and condemn others? Because of his purpose? Ok I see where that is in scripture and all but that's not a God I want to follow or believe in. A God who condemns me no matter what I do. I'm assuming you believe in double predestination, your posts seem to come off in that way.
The problem I have with your viewpoint is simple for me. God sounds evil when he condemns someone (created in his own image and likeness) to hell, not based on anything we have done or will not do. Even if it is for some great purpose to save a few, God to me is still evil if he condemns some to save others, just because his purpose wanted it that way.
I believe that God knows EVERYTHING, even how we will respond to God's grace. So God chooses who to save based on our free response to his will. It's complicated as you said, how can man have power over God's will? He doesn't God's plan is based on how we will respond to his will.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 8:05 pm to Champagne
quote:
Of course both Foo and Rev MUST insist that Baptism is no more than a mere gesture that has absolutely no supernatural consequences. They MUST insist because they are absolutely chained to their False Tradition of FAITH ALONE. If Baptism Saves than Faith Alone is False. So, they are absolutely chained to the fake notion about Baptism having no supernatural consequence whatsoever.
Tell them that NOWHERE in the Bible is their "Faith Alone" tradition proven. Faith Alone is a tradition invented by men over 1,500 years after Christ established his Church. Faith Alone is absent from any Christian theological writing or discourse until invented by men 1,500 years after Christ.
Tell them that this notion about the uselessness of Baptism was completely UNKNOWN in three thousand years of Jewish and Christian theology until it was invented by Martin Luther.
It's all explained in the Catholic Catechism, which is extensively footnoted with citations to Scripture and the teachings of Jesus that He handed down to the Apostles.
I'm doing my best to argue with them. I appreciate the advice
edit: a video you may want to check out. it fits into what we are discussing here. Free Will and God's sovereignty or how he preordains all things. LINK
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 8:17 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 8:11 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
But what about Jesus words that say “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." while not a direct mention of baptism it clearly is about baptism.
It would seem to be talking about baptism in this particular verse, and If this were all of scripture you could make that point, but it isn’t.
Some theologians say the water spoken of in this passage is talking about the natural birth where the fetus is surrounded by water.
This would make perfect sense, and one could say Jesus was contrasting the two births. The first by water and the second by the Holy Spirit. Remember when Jesus talked to Nicodemus when he asked about being born again? Nicodemus said, how can I go back into my mothers womb. Jesus told him he had to be born a second time, but this time, born of the Spirit.
The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized, yet Jesus told him,” today you will be with me in paradise.” So if baptism was essential to salvation, he could not have been saved.
There are also Old Testament saints who were never baptized but will be in heaven.
quote:
baptism in the Catholic Church is understood to be a participation in the very death of Jesus Christ. Not a literal death but a spiritual one, where we die to sin and raise again to a new life in Christ.
As Baptists, we hold to this same teaching that it is an outward symbolic act that demonstrates what has taken place inside. The old man of sin is being buried, and the new man is raised.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 8:23 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 8:28 pm to Revelator
quote:
The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized, yet Jesus told him,” today you will be with me in paradise.” So if baptism was essential to salvation, he could not have been saved.
There are also Old Testament saints who were never baptized but will be in heaven.
I'll come back to Nicodemus later but God is not bound by the sacraments man is. God can save the man on the cross, the people in the Old Testament by means outside of baptism.
quote:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 8:36 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 8:30 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude;
Really? No other means?
Like salvation by faith?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 8:42 pm to catholictigerfan
Ritual washing in water had supernatural significance in the Judeo-Christian religions since 2,000 BC. The Jewish Faith calls it Mikveh, and Mikveh causes the supernatural consequence of Ritual Purification.
LINK
Moving along to 2,000 years later, John the Baptist baptized Jewish folks to forgive their sins in preparation for The Christ - The Messiah. This ritual purification had a supernatural consequence.
Then, of course, Jesus commanded Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Protestants insist that THIS was a mere gesture with NO supernatural consequence, but, of course, this Man Made Tradition of Protestantism was completely Unknown in Judeo-Christian religions until THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS after the Judeo-Christian ritual purification bath was established.
So, 3,500 years after it had been regarded as an act of ritual purification with real supernatural consequences, the men who regarded themselves Protestants told us that The Bible says that Baptism is a mere gesture. Such intoxicating arrogance! What supreme hubris!
And of course, these folks STILL refuse to disclose to us which of the 45,000 Protestant sects they call home.
LINK
Moving along to 2,000 years later, John the Baptist baptized Jewish folks to forgive their sins in preparation for The Christ - The Messiah. This ritual purification had a supernatural consequence.
Then, of course, Jesus commanded Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Protestants insist that THIS was a mere gesture with NO supernatural consequence, but, of course, this Man Made Tradition of Protestantism was completely Unknown in Judeo-Christian religions until THREE THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS after the Judeo-Christian ritual purification bath was established.
So, 3,500 years after it had been regarded as an act of ritual purification with real supernatural consequences, the men who regarded themselves Protestants told us that The Bible says that Baptism is a mere gesture. Such intoxicating arrogance! What supreme hubris!
And of course, these folks STILL refuse to disclose to us which of the 45,000 Protestant sects they call home.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 8:45 pm
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