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re: Abortion from a Republican woman's perspective...
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:32 am to LSU2ALA
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:32 am to LSU2ALA
quote:
They are symbolic poetry and music.
Well I knew God didn't literally pick up knitting needles and get to work.
But isn't there an underlying truth to symbolism? I'm not sure what else knitting you together in your mother's womb could be trying to say.
1
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:39 am to madamtiger
It’s murder plain and simple. You can justify it all you want with your talking points that mostly just tie back to your original statement in regard to being “unplanned”. People love to use what makes up virtually none of abortions as their reason for keeping them accessible. If someone is raped they can immediately take medication to prevent conception. The only situation that I can sympathize with is a child rape/molestation where it’s unknown. I can’t imagine the horror that would cause. My own beliefs would still prevent me from supporting abortion but it would require a strong faith. Otherwise, any abortions are just purely related to being an inconvenience to all parties involved.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:46 am to Azkiger
quote:
Well I knew God didn't literally pick up knitting needles and get to work. But isn't there an underlying truth to symbolism? I'm not sure what else knitting you together in your mother's womb could be trying to say.
That goes back to my original point though. When does the spark of the divine come in? When does be God pick up the symbolic needles so to speak? I don’t know but given that many pregnancies spontaneously abort early on it would seem God’s workmanship is not at play at that point. I’ll admit it’s something I truly don’t know though.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:52 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Except they aren’t arguing when it’s alive.
The entire moral debate about abortion is specifically one of determining when the cells become alive/human.
By every scientific standard for living organism from the moment its cells began to divide it meets the definition. That it’s alive is not a disputable point. People are free to delude themselves and disagree to say it is not alive, but they cannot dispute it.
You, like they are conflating person with human. A human can never be anything else, A is A. Person is a subjective term with no set criteria.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:55 am to LSU2ALA
quote:
I don’t know but given that many pregnancies spontaneously abort early on it would seem God’s workmanship is not at play at that point.
If lethal genetic defects are a sign God wasn't hands on, then children dying shortly after birth from genetic defects should also indicate God wasn't part of the development process either.
But if so, what's the point of that verse?
quote:
I’ll admit it’s something I truly don’t know though.
I don't think the Bible, or any religious text for that matter, is built for high resolution criticisms.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:58 am to llfshoals
quote:
A human can never be anything else, A is A.
Do you realize you keep begging the question?
Posted on 9/1/24 at 8:58 am to madamtiger
Im fully for Democratic women having the right to abort so long as its done medicinally within the first 6 weeks. In fact i strongly encourage the demographic that gets abortions and wants others ti have abortions to do so as much as possible. The fewer of these our society has to carry the better.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:37 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Its not egotistical to believe that the truth exists and can be identified as such. For one, God sets the definition since the pattern of personhood is “from the womb” and on conception specifically, but then scientifically, everything needed for a human being to be a human being begins at conception with the person beginning their continual development into adults like we are from that very moment.
I never said truth didn't exist, in this context. I said we don't know the precise definition of "Truth" in this context.
You're hyper-confident that you can. I'm not that egotistical.
You, however, show skepticism about truth when it comes to moral decisions and it leaves you defenseless, having to talk out of both sides of your mouth because you recognize moral truth but can’t justify it as such.
quote:They are not all arbitrary. Conception is a rational starting point for the reasons I just gave.
They're all arbitrary and we justify it to create the framing we want, which is why I said I don't know the exact point
All other standards for “life” on this subject cannot be consistently applied to other contexts while conception alone can. Arguments for viability, size, location, etc. are arbitrary because there is no rational defense as to why those starting points should be the starting point that can be defended consistently.
If you say that life exists once a child can breathe on its own, for example, then you have to show why an adult that cannot breathe on his own is not alive if he is temporarily assisted in his breathing and has a steady heartbeat. Similarly, if you argue that a child is alive only when he or she can survive apart from his or her mother, you have to explain how a person can be considered alive even on temporary life support. If you say that a child is only alive when there is a heartbeat, you have to explain how an organism can continue to grow and develop when it is not alive. So on and so forth.
Conception is unique in this scenario because it is both the beginning point of a new and unique human offspring biologically as well as the starting point in a developmental process where, if simply left alone, typically results in a living, breathing baby outside the womb. And since human beings only have one starting point, this argument doesn’t have the problem of having to be inconsistently applied to other contexts in the human experience.
quote:I don’t understand why you are using the word “framing” when discussing presuppositions and justifications for premises. Sounds like you’re using phrasing to belittle important elements of rational discussion and argumentation, as if all that is being done is providing a different perspective or lens rather than necessary justification for a position.
Ah, see now you're pointing out framing. Glad you understand it.
quote:Perhaps you can point out why conception is not a more reasonable starting point than your own acknowledged moving target of viability. You’ve done a lot of talking about “framing” but haven’t argued against my position, at least from what I’ve read. Perhaps the “easier” position is easier precisely because it is rational, consistent, and is better than the other arbitrary positions that can’t be applied consistently to human beings.
Just because it's the easier path doesn't make it correct.
quote:It doesn’t seem like you’re discussing the issue much at all, at least with me. You’re just talking about “framing” and why truth can’t be known on this issue because not everyone is convinced and persuaded to one position.
No I'm trying to discuss this as a political, not personal-moral, issue.
There are times when an issue is both personal-moral, as you said, and political, and this is certainly one of those times.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:44 am to llfshoals
quote:
Except they aren’t arguing when it’s alive.
I bet you follow up arguing when you think it's alive
quote:
By every scientific standard for living organism from the moment its cells began to divide it meets the definition. That it’s alive
Yup
Thank you for proving my point
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:45 am to CubsFanBudMan
quote:
If the woman wants to terminate and the man doesn't, he can't force her to give birth even if he agrees to take custody without her paying child support.
My trainer discussed this issue which opened my eyes. A man has no say in the decision to keep or abort, but is always on the hook for child support. That is messed up. I can't imagine wanting to be a Dad and the mom takes that life away from me.
This post was edited on 9/1/24 at 9:46 am
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:50 am to madamtiger
quote:
I read a lot of your posts so I’m understand your passion for the subject. I’m saying as a mother, it would be devastating to have to tell her that her life that she built is over. No college athletics, no job. I just wish you guys could show some sort of compassion
This is precisely why the founding fathers would would laughed at the idea of letting women vote. They understood the nature of women just as well as we do today, as did the generations beforehand.
Sometimes hard decisions have to be made. You cant dictate policy based off the exceptions. In a just society, you protect your children and your wife, you surround them with good neighbors, you keep predators away from your community and you harshly punish those who disrupt social order.
Women want to always bring up the "rape" angle of abortion but as a whole they 1) Vote for soft on crime policies 2) Vote for the mass immigration and diversity policies that increase the risk of sexual crimes against them and their families 3) They denigrate the men that try to protect
To an emotional thinker, providing vast safety nets for single mothers and removing shame seems like the best because they cant or refuse to see the forest through the trees.
To the logical thinker, removing safety nets and increasing shame IS the compassionate thing because it reduces the instances of single motherhood. You are much more likely to walk the tightrope...if there is a net under you to catch you when you fall.
OP wants more safety nets...that just means more single mothers, which leads more kids that grow up without a father, which leads to more grown men who become problems and more women making bad decisions to having unprotected sex with the problem men.
The emotional person scoffs at logic because its unpleasant. Look no further than the responses of OP to others. She was seeking simps like Warrior Court and SlowJoepro to affirm her, not logical arguments about how she was wrong.
This post was edited on 9/1/24 at 9:54 am
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:53 am to scottydoesntknow
quote:
This is precisely why the founding fathers would would laughed at the idea of letting women vote. They understood the nature of women just as well as we do today, as did the generations beforehand.
Sometimes hard decisions have to be made. You cant dictate policy based off the exceptions. In a just society, you protect your children and your wife, you surround them with good neighbors, you keep predators away from your community and you harshly punish those who disrupt social order.
Women want to always bring up the "rape" angle of abortion but as a whole they 1) Vote for soft on crime policies 2) Vote for the mass immigration and diversity policies that increase the risk of sexual crimes against them and their families 3) They denigrate the men that try to protect
To an emotional thinker, providing vast safety nets for single mothers and removing shame seems like the best because they cant or refuse to see the forest through the trees.
To the logical thinker, removing safety nets and increasing shame IS the compassionate thing because it reduces the instances of single motherhood. You are much more likely to walk the tightrope...if there is a net under you to catch you when you fall.
OP wants more safety nets...that just means more single mothers, which leads more kids that grow up without a father, which leads to more grown men who become problems and more women making bad decisions to having unprotected sex with the problem men.
The emotional person scoffs at logic because its unpleasant. Look no further than the responses of OP to others. She was seeking simps like Warrior Court to affirm her, not logical arguments about how she was wrong.
Immensely insightful.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:55 am to CubsFanBudMan
quote:
I would agree with you if the man had equal say in the choice.
Do men not know that sex can result in pregnancy? Do men not know that women decide if they want to continue the pregnancy in state where abortion is legal?
Why do we have to act like men can’t possibly know where babies come from?
Posted on 9/1/24 at 9:57 am to FooManChoo
Its easy to knkw what the Truth is. Look to nature that was here long before man was. THE central principle of nature is to procreate. Abortion and homosexuality in nature is extremely rare and only exists when the population or environment is under stress like over population or famine or where evolution required a species to have either sex give birth. But tgat is extremely rare and an anomoly.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 10:00 am to 4cubbies
quote:
quote:
I would agree with you if the man had equal say in the choice.
Do men not know that sex can result in pregnancy? Do men not know that women decide if they want to continue the pregnancy in state where abortion is legal?
Why do we have to act like men can’t possibly know where babies come from?
Speaking of all emotion and no logic...
Posted on 9/1/24 at 10:02 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
She also would lost a good chunk of her economic prospects,
The emotional response.
Weird. I know lots of pregnant or women with children who didnt sacrifice career.
Strange how they can manage it and you believe they cant.
This post was edited on 9/1/24 at 10:03 am
Posted on 9/1/24 at 10:08 am to scottydoesntknow
quote:
Speaking of all emotion and no logic...
what is emotional about these legitimate questions? Pretending like men can’t understand that sex leads to pregnancy is way more emotional than asking why. Obviously you were triggered by my very simple questions, which caused your emotional response. Any logical person would simply answer the question. Take some deep breaths.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 10:10 am to scottydoesntknow
quote:
This is precisely why the founding fathers would would laughed at the idea of letting women vote. They understood the nature of women just as well as we do today, as did the generations beforehand.
LOL never change MAGA
Posted on 9/1/24 at 10:11 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Why do we have to act like men can’t possibly know where babies come from?
This isnt a legit question, its emotional drivel.
Posted on 9/1/24 at 10:13 am to scottydoesntknow
I’m replying once more cause it’s game day.
And I’m not gonna go in circles with someone who’s just saying the same incorrect things over and over.
What I SAID was what we are doing WASN’T working. We need more accountability to POS parents. You abuse and neglect a child….you get it back in a couple of weeks. All the time.
Safety net does NOT mean more money in my opinion, throwing money at single moms, I repeat, is not the answer. But the kid is here…or coming….so what can be done to help make the kid have a better life? W the opinion “it’s a human baby” does in fact, continue after it’s born, and like it or not, unwanted kids are likely to have it hard. Compassionate pro-lifers should put that in the narrative to change hearts and minds. It needs to become more than about a baby born and a welfare check. I’m trying to tell you I think we need to be there more as a community, present, in ways for them grow up to be a productive member of society, which is better for everyone.What’s the alternative? Keep watching more of what’s happening? THAT’S what I wanted to talk about but you automatically assume I’m asking for more money, which is the exact opposite.
And as small of a percentage, yes, women who are raped should have a six week out. I’m not gonna argue that.
The resof your post is just projecting how you think I vote, or how I treat men in my life which is absolutely wrong, and all because you disagree with my stance on one thing. I had ideas I would have loved to throw around, but as usual it turned into what all the other ones do.
A then you get emotional and say we shouldn’t have the right to vote. Sorry, I’m out.
Have at it eating each other alive. My candidate believes in exceptions and I’m gonna leave it there..
And I’m not gonna go in circles with someone who’s just saying the same incorrect things over and over.
What I SAID was what we are doing WASN’T working. We need more accountability to POS parents. You abuse and neglect a child….you get it back in a couple of weeks. All the time.
Safety net does NOT mean more money in my opinion, throwing money at single moms, I repeat, is not the answer. But the kid is here…or coming….so what can be done to help make the kid have a better life? W the opinion “it’s a human baby” does in fact, continue after it’s born, and like it or not, unwanted kids are likely to have it hard. Compassionate pro-lifers should put that in the narrative to change hearts and minds. It needs to become more than about a baby born and a welfare check. I’m trying to tell you I think we need to be there more as a community, present, in ways for them grow up to be a productive member of society, which is better for everyone.What’s the alternative? Keep watching more of what’s happening? THAT’S what I wanted to talk about but you automatically assume I’m asking for more money, which is the exact opposite.
And as small of a percentage, yes, women who are raped should have a six week out. I’m not gonna argue that.
The resof your post is just projecting how you think I vote, or how I treat men in my life which is absolutely wrong, and all because you disagree with my stance on one thing. I had ideas I would have loved to throw around, but as usual it turned into what all the other ones do.
A then you get emotional and say we shouldn’t have the right to vote. Sorry, I’m out.
Have at it eating each other alive. My candidate believes in exceptions and I’m gonna leave it there..
This post was edited on 9/1/24 at 10:22 am
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