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Started By
Message
1
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:19 pm to MrLarson
quote:
So not even two guns per murdered child?
Just make sure you give Koresh his fair share of blame for the deaths that occurred. He had 50 days to lead those people out the front door and let the agencies execute their search warrants.
Fact is, he was never going to leave and was going to die in that compound and take as many people as he could with him.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:25 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
Did they uncover any sort of plot to venture outside of their compound to cause trouble?
Didn't need one. Some of the weapons they had were illegal and that gives the ATF the authority to go out there and investigate.
Also worth noting the sheriff who is portrayed as being friendly with Koresh, is quoted in the Dallas Morning News as saying
quote:
"I would have tried to arrest him, and I would've never walked out of there alive. One day there had to be a confrontation with them. They were building for this."
This post was edited on 4/24/20 at 2:29 pm
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:31 pm to YeahYeah
quote:
Didn't need one. Some of the weapons they had were illegal and that gives the ATF the authority to go out there and investigate.
That's not really what I'm getting at. The feds, and to some extent, you have said this guy wasn't just thumping his Bible. I guess my question is what was he doing that was a threat to the general public? Was he plotting to go outside the compound to cause havoc?
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:31 pm to YeahYeah
quote:
Didn't need one. Some of the weapons they had were illegal and that gives the ATF the authority to go out there and investigate.
You are 100% correct. It does give them the authority to investigate. But instead of showing up with just one or two investigators looking to execute a search warrant, they showed up with a small army looking for a fight.
They could have easily detained Koresh out in town if they had so chosen because the man wasn't hiding. He was commonly seen outside the compound. But the ATF decided they wanted good press in the aftermath of Ruby Ridge and they figured the only way to do that was to have TV cameras ready at Mt. Carmel to show the guns being removed and Koresh and his closest followers being led away in handcuffs.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:40 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
The feds, and to some extent, you have said this guy wasn't just thumping his Bible
That is correct, he was illegally modifying weapons.
quote:
. I guess my question is what was he doing that was a threat to the general public? Was he plotting to go outside the compound to cause havoc?
Not going to speculate if he did or did not, but what he did do was get in a shootout with federal agents.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:42 pm to YeahYeah
quote:
Not going to speculate if he did or did not, but what he did do was get in a shootout with federal agents.
It sounds like the feds were looking for trouble more than the Davidians were looking to start it.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:47 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
But instead of showing up with just one or two investigators looking to execute a search warrant, they showed up with a small army looking for a fight.
You're not showing up to a compound where there's a large weapons stash with thousands of round of ammo (thats according to the sheriff in 1987 when Koresh was involved in a shootout but after a mistrial he had to return the weapons and ammo) with just 2 guys.
quote:
They could have easily detained Koresh out in town if they had so chosen because the man wasn't hiding. He was commonly seen outside the compound
Absolutely, I'll never argue that they had piss poor intelligence
quote:
But the ATF decided they wanted good press in the aftermath of Ruby Ridge and they figured the only way to do that was to have TV cameras ready at Mt. Carmel to show the guns being removed and Koresh and his closest followers being led away in handcuffs
Yup, they did need good press after Randy Weaver and his family took them for over $3 million in court.
As I've stated from the beginning, both sides royally fricked up
Posted on 4/24/20 at 2:47 pm to YeahYeah
quote:
Just make sure you give Koresh his fair share of blame for the deaths that occurred.
He gets plenty of blame
The FBI could have snatched up Koresh any time they wanted to when he was in town and defused the situation. But they wanted a show of force and I don't know that any of us could say what we would do if a military force like that showed up on our front lawns.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 3:10 pm to YeahYeah
All of which could have been modified after the raid. There was no evidence full auto was used when they defended themselves. Remember, that was on video.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 4:44 pm to MarinaTigerEsq
quote:
ETA: did you know Sigmund Freud’s descendants include the man who literally wrote the book on propaganda (Edward Bernays)
Also was a staffer at the world's foremost, intrusive propaganda mill - Tavistock - who along with his doctrinaire socialist pal Walter Lippmann were at one time advisors to Woodrow Wilson during the time he was most vulnerable and incapacitated and signed those critical pieces of legislation.
Freud's theories were combined with those of the early Marx - his years before his preoccupation with capitalism when he realized his system couldn't work without the cultural destruction of the West - by the émigrés from Germany's Institute For Social Research who went on to do yeoman's work at undermining our most vulnerable and trusting - our young.
Getting generations of them to believe that the revisionist Marxian principles, weak platitudes, and slogans they were being conditioned with were actually something called "progressivism.".
The torrent of counter-cultural images the visual media pipes into our living rooms daily out of Madison Avenue is predominantly due to the Avenue's capacity as a treasure trove/archive for the propaganda techniques conceptualized by Bernays - now referred to euphemistically as marketing.
This post was edited on 4/24/20 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:04 pm to YeahYeah
quote:Stuff it. My profession is about the use of force. The ATF and the FBI had a professional responsibility to appropriately apply force in the performance of their duties. And they failed miserably without being held accountable. Do yourself a favor and study the underlying principles of Jus ad Bellum and Jus in Bello. Those were innocent people who were murdered, plain and simple. There is no getting around it.
Point to where I said that.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:11 pm to MrLarson
quote:
The FBI could have snatched up Koresh any time they wanted to when he was in town and defused the situation. But they wanted a show of force and I don't know that any of us could say what we would do if a military force like that showed up on our front lawns.
I’d probably surrender in the quickest way possible that would minimize risk of death, and not fire back.
That sounds smarmy but whether I duck and run or hit the ground when the bullets fly in certainly not hunkering down for two months. I’m as quickly as possible defusing the situation.
This post was edited on 4/24/20 at 6:18 pm
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:12 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Stuff it. My profession is about the use of force. The ATF and the FBI had a professional responsibility to appropriately apply force in the performance of their duties. And they failed miserably without being held accountable. Do yourself a favor and study the underlying principles of Jus ad Bellum and Jus in Bello. Those were innocent people who were murdered, plain and simple. There is no getting around it.
Agreed. Fbi was insane.
I believe Koresh would’ve eagerly found his hill to quite literally die on at some point but it didn’t need to be there with that many people.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:15 pm to Wolfhound45
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/1/21 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:15 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
However, I would say that when the govt behaves the way it did in Ruby Ridge and Waco, you almost certainly SHOULD lay some of the blame for what happens after at the government's feet.
Now, McVeigh was honestly correct that the govt "had it coming". Where he failed is that he was far to general in his targeting.
In going for a big splash, dude killed a bunch of children and general office workers.
He'd have sent a far better message blowing up some small FBI field office or, directly targeting people involved in those incidents
Jesus, dude.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:17 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:
Do that now. Why didnt Koresh send out the children? 51 days thousand of request by the feds to send out the children.
You obviously have a clear understanding of the government failures and shortcomings so give us some insight on why Koresh didnt send out the children?
Help us out here, all of us dont have a crystal clear understanding of exacly what happened like you do.
He obviously wanted cover from the fbi doing exactly what they did. Which no one imagined they would ever conceive doing around kids yet alone actually go forward with.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:24 pm to NoSaint
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/1/21 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:30 pm to Lakeboy7
No, I am fine. It is not worth my time. You are very satisfied with the unjustified murder of innocent women and children. They had it coming to them.
Posted on 4/24/20 at 6:48 pm to DyeHardDylan
David Koresh was a lot nuttier and evil then portrayed in the show. Still good though
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