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Message
1
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:28 pm to mattloc
quote:
I know of many Christian religious orginizations that do not believe all these "Klarvin Tenets
Please list them.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:28 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
I'm afraid you have no idea what that is.
I was an orthodox Christian for a very long time, I know what is considered orthodoxy and what is considered heresy.
quote:
. . and in creep the qualifiers.
What qualifiers?
IF YOU REJECT JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD OR THE MEANS BY WHICH MEN ACHIEVE SALVATION MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANITY SAYS YOU CANNOT BE SAVED.
It is that simple. The only caveats some groups provide is invincible ignorance, which doesn't apply to anyone here.
Catholics
Eastern Orthodoxy
Oriental orthodoxy
Baptists
Anabaptists
Reformed
Methodists
Quakers
Lutherans
Episcopalians
Presbyterians
Anglicans
Puritans
Pentacostals
Calvinists
Church of Christ
And more I'm sure I'm forgetting. All maintain Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. ALL OF THEM.
You have to venture all the way our to the LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses before finding groups that even KINDA differ on this and neither are considered mainstream Christianity.
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 6:38 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:29 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
these are the tenants that ALL Christian denominations agree upon
*tenets*
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:37 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Please list the ones which differ.
You already listed the ones that differ for me. Every single thing on your list has differing interpretations among different denominations.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:38 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:LINK
Please list them.
e.g.,
quote:
One of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II") during the early to mid 1960s was the "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium." Chapter 1, sections 14 to 16 discuss salvation of Catholics and others. 5 An "Assessment of this Council" reads:
"5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 6:42 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:39 pm to TK421
quote:
You already listed the ones that differ for me
I did not. Please list the Christian churches which, as part of official doctrine, dispute these things:
quote:
You MUST believe there is one triune God, consisting of father, son and holy ghost.
You MUST believe Jesus is the son of God, sent to die for the sins of mankind.
You MUST believe that he rose from the grave after death.
You MUST believe what Jesus said about heaven, hell and eternity.
You MUST trust in him for your salvation, repent and seek to follow him and make him the lord of your life.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:41 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
You can absolutely believe whatever you want, but the discussion here involves orthodox Christianity. If one believe the bible and the words of Jesus as real and divine, and one believes 2000 years of church history, there is a very narrow and specific set of requirements for salvation.
this prereq is something that is very important I think in your pots and may be something other guys have missed. It appears you are primarily talking about Christianity and maybe more specifically Catholics.
Now let me jump in here and make a few quick comments. I don't have much time.
1) Those who will be saved who will spend enternity with God, were open to the saving Grace given to them by God when the appropriate time came. Meaning at the point of death they were open to the saving grace of Christ and they were prepared for it.
2) the positions you gave are for 97% of Catholics necessary. I would argue that a select few don't believe this but are still saved. Examples: a baby, who won't last more than a couple hours outside of the womb is baptized removing original sin and this baby is in a state of grace. The baby dies after Baptism and goes to heaven. Even though the baby never heard of Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit, and all of the stories behind it. Those who are Catholic and follow Christ through the Church are required to believe in what you laid out. Sometimes God puts people in situations where they have no chance to profess their belief or even hear about the truth of the Gospel.
3) based on 2 hearing and believing the gospel isn't required for salvation. It is only necessary for those who have been shown the truth of the Gospel and know that it is the truth. Those who KNOWINGLY reject the truth put their souls at risk.
4) What about all of those who didn't hear the truth and died. I would say that even they can be saved assuming they believed the truth reveled to them in their own lives by God. As it says in scripture God wills all be saved. God would never willing put someone in a situation that would condemn them to hell through no fault of their own.
to put this simply. Those truths are necessary for only those who have heard that truth and know it to be the truth. It is possible that someone through no fault of their own, haven't heard the truth, or the truth was so distorted they couldn't believe it, can be saved.
I must go but those are my 2 cents
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:41 pm to NC_Tigah
That's great, should be easy enough then for you. It's right there in that link. Please list the ones which deny any one of those five things I listed.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:43 pm to Roger Klarvin
You seem to be gleefully ignorant concerning a wide range of topics.
I know plenty of Christians that do not believe in physical resurrection.
What Jesus said about heaven, hell, and eternity is open to wide interpretation.
The other things on your list are also open to a wide variety of interpretations.
quote:
You MUST believe that he rose from the grave after death.
I know plenty of Christians that do not believe in physical resurrection.
quote:
You MUST believe what Jesus said about heaven, hell and eternity.
What Jesus said about heaven, hell, and eternity is open to wide interpretation.
The other things on your list are also open to a wide variety of interpretations.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:43 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Check again.
Please list the ones which deny any one of those five things I listed.
I figured you would not read the link.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:43 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
I would argue that a select few don't believe this but are still saved.
And that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't change the official position of the catholic church.
Others in this thread have claimed that as part of official church doctrine, not interpretation or personal belief, multiple Christian churches deny the tenets I listed.
I'm asking them to list them.
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 6:44 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:45 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Quoted above. but again:
but it doesn't change the official position of the catholic church.
quote:
One of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II") during the early to mid 1960s was the "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium." Chapter 1, sections 14 to 16 discuss salvation of Catholics and others. 5 An "Assessment of this Council" reads:
"5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:45 pm to TK421
quote:
I know plenty of Christians that do not believe in physical resurrection.
Ah, now we're moving the goalposts.
The issue was never about individual belief but about OFFICIAL CHURCH DOCTRINE. People can believe whatever they want, but churches have official doctrines that people are SUPPOSED to believe.
quote:
What Jesus said about heaven, hell, and eternity is open to wide interpretation.
Great, please list the churches which officially deny Heaven, Hell or an eternal soul.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:46 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Check again.
You are so sure I am wrong I am asking you to post the names. it should be as easy as copy and paste.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:48 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
One of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II") during the early to mid 1960s was the "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium." Chapter 1, sections 14 to 16 discuss salvation of Catholics and others. 5 An "Assessment of this Council" reads:
"5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
The official catholic position, as stated in the catechism, remains as it has for 2000 years that outside of invincible ignorance no one can be saved outside the catholic church. What is being referred to here is just a version of invincible ignorance.
This post was edited on 2/11/14 at 6:49 pm
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:48 pm to TheDoc
quote:
But I'm going to trust what my Grandmother and her Grandmother believed in the face of 'not-knowing' or the 'unknown
Viz whether or not to 'believe' in God in these 'modern' times of half-men and lemmings who propagate the ideas of rationalism and science over all things I'll call 'mystical'. It's not a joke, and you should go visit your elders and take some notes.
Problem is that scientific 'theories', even ones like Relativity, can not be proven. ONLY FALSIFIED. Understand?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:49 pm to TK421
quote:
I know plenty of Christians that do not believe in physical resurrection.
Then they aren't really Christians because that's.. How do I say this... Kind of the whole point of Christianity.
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:51 pm to rcocke2
quote:
Problem is that scientific 'theories', even ones like Relativity, can not be proven. ONLY FALSIFIED. Understand?
Just like Germs and atoms amirite?
Posted on 2/11/14 at 6:52 pm to rcocke2
quote:
Problem is that scientific 'theories', even ones like Relativity, can not be proven. ONLY FALSIFIED. Understand?
9/10 Excellent troll
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