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re: How Finland built the best education system in the world
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:32 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:32 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:He doesn't see the value in a system unless it is perfectly applicable to every single area of the country AND centrally controlled.
why?
i already explained why a federal system like Finland's cannot work here
and how "conservatives" are willing to spend locally
so why is local control such a bad thing if it would allow more areas to spend more on education AND possibly adopt the Finnish system that you value? that seems like the EXACT situation you'd support
1
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
I think local reform is an ongoing effort and in the current paradigm the only option. But that will never get us to being able to compete with Finland and other top places. Across the board, country wide reform is needed not only to fix the schools but to change the culture you guys keep referencing. We need to hit the restart button on how we view education, on how we look at the teacher profession, and what we want our kids to get out of school. Local incremental change is not going to get us there.
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:34 pm to Scruffy
quote:
He doesn't see the value in a system unless it is perfectly applicable to every single area of the country AND centrally controlled.
see and that's exactly why we don't have the Finnish system, b/c we have a country of 320M+ people and diverse cultures and educational needs. if you require a federal-based system (like we basically have now), it will never be as individualized as this Finnish model
and why a small country without those diverse cultures, like Finland, can have that system
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:36 pm to SlowFlowPro
We seem to be talking about two different things. Are you even talking about America (ya know..the COUNTRY) being competitive with the other top countries in this space? If you aren't talking about that then stop with the circular non-sense.
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:38 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
But that will never get us to being able to compete with Finland and other top places
overall? no
b/c we have an underclass that Finland and other areas don't have and they will drag down our overall scores
all i care about is how our top students compare to the top of other countries. they're the only ones that will make the real difference in the world anyway. the pathetic thing is that our federal, one size fits all, system, erodes the education of the top in order to try to raise the education of the bottom. it's insanity
quote:
Across the board, country wide reform is needed not only to fix the schools but to change the culture you guys keep referencing.
the only way we can begin to change the culture is to admit that we have a cultural problem
the first step to having that discussion is not labeling everyone who sees this issue in terms of culture as a fricking racist, esp when that person comes from a poor area like the south that is filled to the brim with trashy arse white people
quote:
Local incremental change is not going to get us there.
local excellence is the only chance we have to keep our elite rising
a federally homogenous system basically destroys the elite students
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:43 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:This.
b/c we have an underclass that Finland and other areas don't have and they will drag down our overall scores
quote:Massively this.
all i care about is how our top students compare to the top of other countries. they're the only ones that will make the real difference in the world anyway. the pathetic thing is that our federal, one size fits all, system, erodes the education of the top in order to try to raise the education of the bottom. it's insanity
quote:Ding ding.
the first step to having that discussion is not labeling everyone who sees this issue in terms of culture as a fricking racist, esp when that person comes from a poor area like the south that is filled to the brim with trashy arse white people
Tigerdev, do you think the worst kids in my high school were minorities?
No, they were white.
Stop focusing on race and admit we have a massive cultural problem in this country.
This post was edited on 2/6/17 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:49 pm to Scruffy
i got called a racist the other day on a secret FB group for talking about cultural issues in the economic realm and food dhoice. the dude fricking flipped on me and was like "this conversation is racist as shite. i don't even think you've ever met a balck person" and i was like ??? race was never brought up and teh entire time i was picturing a helga on one of those motorized scooters in walmart
when i politely reminded the guy i'm from fricking Lousiiana and my city is 50/50, he left never to be seen again
when i politely reminded the guy i'm from fricking Lousiiana and my city is 50/50, he left never to be seen again
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:55 pm to SlowFlowPro
I don't know if those people are simply insanely racist themselves or what, but their inability to separate culture from race makes it impossible to have any genuine discussion about cultures.
This post was edited on 2/6/17 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:57 pm to Bench McElroy
It's a homogeneous society. Totally different atmosphere than here.
Posted on 2/6/17 at 4:58 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
We can afford to invest in education. Finland is smaller yes but they don't have our wealth.
Standards and an education program for prospective teachers to meet those standards is what we need. Conservatives would never allow that.
We spend more per student than Finland
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:00 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
Well a local solution has no place in this discussion
It should have the priority in this discussion. Standardization runs directly afoul of the Finnish model.
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:03 pm to Scruffy
well there are lots of people who do say racist or borderline racist shite using "culture" as code. but even then, in most casts, it's not even purely racist. it's an attack on trashy black people. like when people talk about "cultcha" on here, it's not really a black thing it's about that really shitty urban-black, "street" culture
BUT, since they really do describe it as a "black" thing, it does come off as racist (and sometimes, is legit racism. i RA'd somebody earlier for very similar language that was obviously intended to be racist)
but if you really make them examine their beliefs, many do have that "white savior" complex and the annoying, essentially racist paternalism when it comes to minorities. this is why the whole "privilege" concept has been over-used so much that it's basically hidden racism by progressives
on the one hand, "white privilege" does exist in some situations (like DWB)
in other areas, they use the very "culture" argument, but then frame it in terms of privilege. so like they'll argue that whites have all of these privileges that lead to success, but often it's cultural behaviors that lead to more optimal results. and instead of calling out that "non-privileged" as having cultural issues so that we can have that discussion, its' just "white privilege and all you can do to fight that privilege is [insert some redistributive policy]"
it's like they argue they want lower-optimal cultures to remain the same while achieving the same success WHILE acknowledging the existence of cultural differences that lead to different results AND demonizing the culture that leads to more optimal results. it's fricking insanity
BUT, since they really do describe it as a "black" thing, it does come off as racist (and sometimes, is legit racism. i RA'd somebody earlier for very similar language that was obviously intended to be racist)
but if you really make them examine their beliefs, many do have that "white savior" complex and the annoying, essentially racist paternalism when it comes to minorities. this is why the whole "privilege" concept has been over-used so much that it's basically hidden racism by progressives
on the one hand, "white privilege" does exist in some situations (like DWB)
in other areas, they use the very "culture" argument, but then frame it in terms of privilege. so like they'll argue that whites have all of these privileges that lead to success, but often it's cultural behaviors that lead to more optimal results. and instead of calling out that "non-privileged" as having cultural issues so that we can have that discussion, its' just "white privilege and all you can do to fight that privilege is [insert some redistributive policy]"
it's like they argue they want lower-optimal cultures to remain the same while achieving the same success WHILE acknowledging the existence of cultural differences that lead to different results AND demonizing the culture that leads to more optimal results. it's fricking insanity
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:03 pm to Antonio Moss
Why is the leftist answer always more government and more money?
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:06 pm to Scruffy
quote:
I don't know if those people are simply insanely racist themselves or what, but their inability to separate culture from race makes it impossible to have any genuine discussion about cultures.
It's more of this insane notion of equality of potential. Many people believe that regardless of the student, his family, his culture, etc., as long as you follow the standardized receipe, you'll get a great result. It's asinine. Ironically, the Scandinavian nations don't buy into this. The have separate tracks for students starting early on.
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:07 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but if you really make them examine their beliefs, many do have that "white savior" complex and the annoying, essentially racist paternalism when it comes to minorities. this is why the whole "privilege" concept has been over-used so much that it's basically hidden racism by progressives
And that's the key issue for me. I think the paternalistic aspect is more racist than someone who says "you're not getting special help. You can learn to swim or you can drown."
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:07 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Ironically, the Scandinavian nations don't buy into this. The have separate tracks for students starting early on.
oh i LOVE hearing progressives cheer the European models
yeah, they would be the most indirectly racist arse policies in the history of the US according to our jurisprudence on disparate impact
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:09 pm to LordSaintly
quote:
I think the paternalistic aspect is more racist than someone who says "you're not getting special help. You can learn to swim or you can drown."
thank you. i will never get out these progs can call other racist with a straight face while being legit "white saviors" of minorities. it's the most elitist, racist shite ever
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:39 pm to Bench McElroy
quote:Good article.
How Finland built the best education system in the world
Annual Expenditure by Educational Institutions per Student for All Services
This post was edited on 2/6/17 at 5:41 pm
Posted on 2/6/17 at 5:47 pm to LordSaintly
quote:
How would the education system in the U.S. rank worldwide if we removed all minorities from the statistics?
quote:
Probably not much different. People in this thread are conflating skin color with ethnicity, as if Ashkenazi Jews and Louisiana Cajuns have anything in common. Removing black and brown people still leaves a whole lot of ethnically diverse whites. That isn't what you're seeing in countries like Finland.
LINK
SAT scores of the last 20 years broken down by race/ethnicity clearly show average overall score was decreased significantly by minority scores. The differences are more striking when considered in terms of percentile ranking instead of the raw
score.
LINK
Mean SAT Scores by Race/Ethnicity, 2015
Group Critical Reading Mathematics Writing
American Indian 481 482 460
Asian-American 525 598 531
Black 431 428 418
Mexican-American448 457 438
Puerto Rican 456 449 442
Other Hispanic 449 457 439
White 529 534 513
Posted on 2/6/17 at 6:02 pm to Bench McElroy
quote:
By presenting real-world challenges with direct personal connections,
This is huge.
Busy work is bullshite.
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