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re: In God We Trust now under attack..
Posted on 5/7/18 at 10:54 am to GRTiger
Posted on 5/7/18 at 10:54 am to GRTiger
Give me one single source that the Founders believed we wouldn't have inherent rights if there was no "Creator".
If I brought Thomas Jefferson back from the dead, informed him on the whole of scientific and philosophical advancement, and said "Imagine, Tom, that human beings evolved over time from disparate matter and were not created in the image of an all-powerful deity, would they still have claim to the freedoms of the Bill of Rights?" You really think he would say "Hell no, bring on totalarianism! Life is pointless and we are slaves to the Leviathan!"
If I brought Thomas Jefferson back from the dead, informed him on the whole of scientific and philosophical advancement, and said "Imagine, Tom, that human beings evolved over time from disparate matter and were not created in the image of an all-powerful deity, would they still have claim to the freedoms of the Bill of Rights?" You really think he would say "Hell no, bring on totalarianism! Life is pointless and we are slaves to the Leviathan!"
2
Posted on 5/7/18 at 10:58 am to Muthsera
quote:
Give me one single source that the Founders believed we wouldn't have inherent rights if there was no "Creator". If I brought Thomas Jefferson back from the dead, informed him on the whole of scientific and philosophical advancement, and said "Imagine, Tom, that human beings evolved over time from disparate matter and were not created in the image of an all-powerful deity, would they still have claim to the freedoms of the Bill of Rights?" You really think he would say "Hell no, bring on totalarianism! Life is pointless and we are slaves to the Leviathan!"
Creator means something doesn't it?
The point is, the Founders are making it clear that if your rights are simply granted by government and not a higher power, those rights could be arbitrarily taken back.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:00 am to Revelator
quote:
Creator means something doesn't it?
Sure, just not necessarily Christian - which was the allegation in the OP.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:06 am to Antonio Moss
I find it fascinating that the reason SCOTUS upheld the motto is because they said it had functionally become non religious due to rote use. Yet, every time the issue comes up, Christians come out of the woodwork to argue that this motto reflects that we are a Christian nation and, if we get rid of the motto, we will lose god’s favor.
Makes me think we might be ripe for a fresh legal challenge.
Makes me think we might be ripe for a fresh legal challenge.
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 11:21 am
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:09 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Sure, just not necessarily Christian - which was the allegation in the OP.
Which other creator would be founders be referring to?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:12 am to Dale51
quote:
How so? Are you referring to that 1 sentence in that 1 letter that Jefferson wrote?
Why are you trying to argue with me when you didnt even read what I referenced?
Does "Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli" sound like a letter Jefferson wrote?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:17 am to Muthsera
No, I don't believe he'd say that. Solid straw man, though.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:26 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
The bigger issue is that it exposes the complete ignorance about how the country was founded. "In God We Trust" is not a foundation phrase.
Foundational principles is not the same as a "foundation phrase"...whatever that even is?
What would be a "foundational phrase"? Would rights "endowed by their creator" be close to one?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:31 am to Azkiger
quote:
Why are you trying to argue with me when you didnt even read what I referenced? Does "Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli" sound like a letter Jefferson wrote?
I'm not "arguing". I asked a question.
Try decaf for a few days.
*A politician jiving some Islamic pirates doesn't prove much imo. I would guess his point would go the recent bad experiences with government mandated religion? Just a guess*
*
This post was edited on 5/7/18 at 11:36 am
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:32 am to rumproast
quote:
In God We Trust now under attack.
And? Who cares? Your faith is the only thing that should matter. Stay on the path and you'll be fine.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:36 am to Joshjrn
quote:
I find it fascinating that the reason SCOTUS upheld the motto is because they said it had functionally become non religious due to rote use. Yet, every time the issue comes up, Christians come out of the woodwork to argue that this motto reflects that we are a Christian nation and, if we get rid of the motto, we will lose god’s favor.
Do you find it fascinating that the issue is brought up at all, considering that SCOTUS ruling and the fact that it only ever gets brought up by people who claim some form of religious persecution for having to see the motto?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:37 am to Joshjrn
quote:
They used which words, exactly?
quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights,
Can you tell me what he founders were talking about here? Our rights are endowed by who again?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:39 am to Dale51
quote:
A politician jiving some Islamic pirates doesn't prove much imo.
That treaty was unanimously passed by our Senate in the 1790's....
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:40 am to Revelator
quote:
Which other creator would be founders be referring to?
Deist creator
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:42 am to Revelator
quote:
The point is, the Founders are making it clear that if your rights are simply granted by government and not a higher power, those rights could be arbitrarily taken back.
If that's your interpretation of the presence of "Creator" you're reaching very hard. That's not making something clear.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:42 am to Dale51
quote:
Foundational principles is not the same as a "foundation phrase"...whatever that even is?
A phrase found in the founding documents. This thread is specifically about the motto.
quote:
What would be a "foundational phrase"? Would rights "endowed by their creator" be close to one?
Sure. It's in our most important document.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:49 am to Joshjrn
quote:
find it fascinating that the reason SCOTUS upheld the motto is because they said it had functionally become non religious due to rote use. Yet, every time the issue comes up, Christians come out of the woodwork to argue that this motto reflects that we are a Christian nation and, if we get rid of the motto, we will lose god’s favor.
Exactly. The reason why we still have it is because it is essentially non-religious. Yet Christians think removing it will make the country devoid of religion. It’s a very perplexing position to take.
Posted on 5/7/18 at 11:50 am to rumproast
Happening in Minn legislature.... Sad ... Minn is more like East and West coast.... full of frozen snowflake Demos
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:00 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Deist creator
And who would that be? Are you telling me that in a nation that almost exclusively worshipped a Judeo-Christian God at the time, that their reference to a Creator was somehow, someone else?
Posted on 5/7/18 at 12:01 pm to cahoots
Why does the issue of removing an essentially non-religious statement get brought up every election cycle? Who brings it up? Are you perplexed by their position?
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