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re: Interesting how "Evangelicals" are separating themselves from "Protestants".
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:40 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:40 pm to FooManChoo
Yes, I think I'm stating it properly when I say that Catholicism teaches that a man must choose to have Faith in Christ in order to be saved. If he doesn't believe and have Faith in Christ's redeeming sacrifice, then he cannot be saved. This is harsh because this will leave out a lot of good people who do very good and charitable works - but because they lack the Faith in Christ part, my understanding is they are not Saved.
This post was edited on 10/6/25 at 8:43 pm
2
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:42 pm to LockDown
quote:In the same passage (ch 2), James contrasts a saving faith that produces good works with a mere intellectual faith about God that even the demons have. Clearly James isn’t talking about a saving faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, as demons can’t and don’t have that.
Where is this stated? I'm not seeing this in James.
A person can have an intellectual belief that God exists and even that Jesus existed without a saving and changing faith in a personal forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ that is proven by good works. It is why James said he will show his faith by his works. He demonstrates that his saving faith is such because it produces good works of obedience as a natural consequence.
Historic Protestantism never denied the need for good works in the life of a Christian. It only denied that those good works merit salvation. They are a necessary evidence of salvation (a good tree produces good fruit), not a necessary contribution to salvation.
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:44 pm to Champagne
quote:That means man is not dead, but merely sick, at worst.
Yes, I think I'm stating it properly when I say that Catholicism teaches that a man must choose to have Faith in Christ in order to be saved.
The Bible teaches man is dead in his trespasses and sins and must be made alive before he can believe. Jesus refers to this as being “born again”.
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:45 pm to FooManChoo
[link=(It only denied that those good works merit salvation.)]LINK[/link]
Catholicism and the Council of Trent agree that good and charitable works alone won't save anyone.
Catholicism and the Council of Trent agree that good and charitable works alone won't save anyone.
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:47 pm to somethingdifferent
quote:Amen, brother! And likewise
Foo, I know we tussled over a particular topic but I have no doubt we stand shoulder to shoulder for the kingdom, brother. Keep fighting the good fight
Posted on 10/6/25 at 8:50 pm to Champagne
quote:And I say that the Scriptures teach that our good works are as filthy menstrual rags and merit nothing at all towards our salvation.
Catholicism and the Council of Trent agree that good and charitable works alone won't save anyone.
Only Christ’s perfect works of obedience can and do merit justification for sinners. That merit is received by faith alone, and such a saving faith will produce good works by the Spirit.
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:38 pm to FooManChoo
I don't know what you are driving at. We have agreed that good deeds alone don't trigger Salvation.
And we both agree that the Saved Person will have Faith and will have lived a Christian life which includes charitable works.
Are you still saying that Catholics believe that we can do all manner of good deeds in life and be an Atheist and then still be Saved because of all of our good and charitable deeds?
You and I both know people in our respective church congregations who spend much of their spare time doing charitable deeds for the church and perhaps even missionary work that would take them overseas. They all profess Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. But you say the Catholic do-gooders are Damned to Hell?
And is the missionary work that these do=gooder do considered by Almighty God to be filthy, stinking putrid rotten blood soaked menstrual rags?
And we both agree that the Saved Person will have Faith and will have lived a Christian life which includes charitable works.
Are you still saying that Catholics believe that we can do all manner of good deeds in life and be an Atheist and then still be Saved because of all of our good and charitable deeds?
You and I both know people in our respective church congregations who spend much of their spare time doing charitable deeds for the church and perhaps even missionary work that would take them overseas. They all profess Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. But you say the Catholic do-gooders are Damned to Hell?
And is the missionary work that these do=gooder do considered by Almighty God to be filthy, stinking putrid rotten blood soaked menstrual rags?
This post was edited on 10/6/25 at 9:41 pm
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:48 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Precisely. My preoccupation is with the people who are lying to the congregants. Jesus has harsh words for those false teachers.
My condemnation is primarily of the organization and teachings of the RCC
The bottom line is this. Does Catholic doctrine accept the authority and inspiration of scripture in that Jesus is lord and his death served as propitiation and for the remission of sins? Yes.
That's not the problem. The church has adopted many, many practices that are outside of scripture and are not biblical in character. Worse, the church teaches that those things are authoritative and necessary for salvation. That is heresy. Even worse, those elements of Sacred Tradition far, far eclipse evangelization which is blatantly unbiblical
It's indefensible
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:50 pm to Champagne
quote:But don't forget the part about sacramentalism and Catholic particularity that I have already mentioned. Now, how Catholics reconcile those 2 things? Pretzel logic
I think I'm stating it properly when I say that Catholicism teaches that a man must choose to have Faith in Christ in order to be saved
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:51 pm to Champagne
quote:But that's not the ONLY Catholic teaching on the subject. The rest is patently contradictory
Catholicism and the Council of Trent agree that good and charitable works alone won't save anyone
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:52 pm to somethingdifferent
quote:
But don't forget the part about sacramentalism and Catholic particularity that I have already mentioned. Now, how Catholics reconcile those 2 things? Pretzel logic
How are they not reconciled?
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:54 pm to somethingdifferent
You THINK that you found something contradictory but you have not.
Could you please be good enough to reveal your own particular church and Christian denomination?
Could you please be good enough to reveal your own particular church and Christian denomination?
This post was edited on 10/6/25 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:57 pm to somethingdifferent
quote:
But that's not the ONLY Catholic teaching on the subject. The rest is patently contradictory
Alright seminary student (respectfully),
Use logic to prove the contradiction you are claiming. Im curious. Like formal logic. Proof by contradiction.
Posted on 10/6/25 at 9:59 pm to Champagne
quote:
Could you please be good enough to reveal your own particular church and Christian denomination?
I've always been curious about that for other folks as well, its easy to point out the Catholics or Orthodox, but the protestant folks are a tad bit more difficult.
I know Foo is Scottish Presbyterian (sorry Foo if I misremembered, I just know yall like singing as I didn't even know that was a thing for them
) I assume most folks are Baptist (just because a shite ton of people down here are...also some form of non-denom), I know one poster way back when in this thread approved Landmarkism, which is uniquely Baptist if I remember correctly.
This post was edited on 10/6/25 at 10:03 pm
Posted on 10/6/25 at 10:01 pm to gaetti15
I would like Foo and Something Different to answer this question:
There's missionary work being done in Africa - work for the poor. One missionary is from Something Different's church ( we don't know what church that is because he has bravely and with great courage kept that info from us) and the other missionary worker is Catholic.
Which works done by these two men are considered by Almighty God to be filthy menstrual rags? Why?
There's missionary work being done in Africa - work for the poor. One missionary is from Something Different's church ( we don't know what church that is because he has bravely and with great courage kept that info from us) and the other missionary worker is Catholic.
Which works done by these two men are considered by Almighty God to be filthy menstrual rags? Why?
Posted on 10/6/25 at 10:04 pm to Champagne
I would like to point out that my question is still unanswered. Any Catholic who does not make a good faith effort to answer it is a fraud of a Christian and not a geniune, earnest believer at this time.
This question underscores how Catholic dogma proceeds all the way to absurd notions like the extra ecclesiam nulla salus in catechism 100. Billy Graham probably led more people to Christ than even the apostle Paul yet, the Catholic church would consider him no different than an atheist. Heck, even Paul couldn't pass that test because he took no sacraments.
This question underscores how Catholic dogma proceeds all the way to absurd notions like the extra ecclesiam nulla salus in catechism 100. Billy Graham probably led more people to Christ than even the apostle Paul yet, the Catholic church would consider him no different than an atheist. Heck, even Paul couldn't pass that test because he took no sacraments.
Posted on 10/6/25 at 10:10 pm to somethingdifferent
quote:
Heck, even Paul couldn't pass that test because he took no sacraments.
Pretty sure he did at least baptism (eta: recognized baptism and household baptism) and the Eucharist
and that is for sure in the Bible. But the argument will devolve into your interpretation vs mine.
I mean quite literally the oldest recounting of the institution of the Eucharist is found in Corinthians.
Ooo forgot holy orders from the laying of the hands after his blindness was removed (eta: was also technically baptized in this event as well)
This post was edited on 10/6/25 at 10:42 pm
Posted on 10/6/25 at 10:23 pm to Champagne
quote:The RCC teaches that good deeds are necessary for meriting salvation. I’m saying that good works play no part in meriting salvation except for Christ’s good works. Yours and mine do not merit salvation in any way. You keep focusing on “alone”, and I’m saying “not at all”.
I don't know what you are driving at. We have agreed that good deeds alone don't trigger Salvation.
quote:Yes, but while I believe the Bible teaches good works flow from our salvation, you believe that they contribute to our salvation. That is a big and important difference.
And we both agree that the Saved Person will have Faith and will have lived a Christian life which includes charitable works.
quote:No. I know that the RCC teaches faith is necessary for salvation. I disagree that anything else is necessary to merit salvation, including good works. Good works are a fruit, not a root, of salvation.
Are you still saying that Catholics believe that we can do all manner of good deeds in life and be an Atheist and then still be Saved because of all of our good and charitable deeds?
quote:Only if they trust in anything but the work of Christ alone for their justification. If a Catholic (or anyone) trusts in their good works, their association with the Catholic Church, the works of the saints, or anything else in addition to the work of Christ on the cross, then they have rejected the gospel and are damned unless they repent.
You and I both know people in our respective church congregations who spend much of their spare time doing charitable deeds for the church and perhaps even missionary work that would take them overseas. They all profess Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. But you say the Catholic do-gooders are Damned to Hell?
quote:Yes, if not cleansed by the blood of Christ alone by faith alone.
And is the missionary work that these do=gooder do considered by Almighty God to be filthy, stinking putrid rotten blood soaked menstrual rags?
This post was edited on 10/6/25 at 10:24 pm
Posted on 10/6/25 at 10:42 pm to somethingdifferent
What is your church and denomination, sir?
Posted on 10/6/25 at 10:50 pm to FooManChoo
Foo, you say that we are saved by Faith Alone. If that is true, then how can a severely mentally disabled infant who is in a coma manage to make it to Heaven by being saved by Faith Alone?
And let me ask you another question. What if a person believes that Faith in Jesus Christ Alone leads to Salvation but has been tricked or somehow persuaded that in addition to Faith Alone, the person must always wear unmatched socks. Are you saying that person is going to Hell because he has believed that wearing unmatched socks is also required for Salvation? What if the person is not quite intelligent enough to realize that he's been tricked in to believing this nonsense about always wearing non-matching socks?
This non-matching socks guy is the best church-goer, believer and missionary that you've ever seen. Is he going to Hell because he mistakenly added something to his firm belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior?
And let me ask you another question. What if a person believes that Faith in Jesus Christ Alone leads to Salvation but has been tricked or somehow persuaded that in addition to Faith Alone, the person must always wear unmatched socks. Are you saying that person is going to Hell because he has believed that wearing unmatched socks is also required for Salvation? What if the person is not quite intelligent enough to realize that he's been tricked in to believing this nonsense about always wearing non-matching socks?
This non-matching socks guy is the best church-goer, believer and missionary that you've ever seen. Is he going to Hell because he mistakenly added something to his firm belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior?
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